Questions for Catholics

Catholics think they are proving that salvation is by our 'works' as they point to the Book of James. Actually, James is only saying, if you have a true and lively faith you will produce good works. Now as to 'works' that they like to speak about you will find the word 'works' four times in I Corinthians 3:13-15. It is our good and bad works that will pass through the fire of His judgment, at the Judgment Seat of Christ, and not we ourselves. We were saved when we first believed in Christ. [Romans 5:1] No condemnation ever again, [Romans 8:1] Never again will we be separated from the love of God in Christ, [Romans 8:33-39] Our loss of relationship to Christ can never be lost because God speaking through the Apostle Paul has said that ' . . . where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.' So if we are saved why not sin because we are saved anyway? some have asked, What does Paul say, 'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [Romans 6:1] Of course not, we who have the wonderful grace of Jesus only desire to love and serve and please Him. At least that's the way I feel.

good stuff ray

Hi Ray,

Okay, let's put two and two together.

In the thread entitled "if the pope dies", you wrote, "Catholicism has erred by teaching her people that you must satisfy holy God by faith plus good works."

I responded to your statement with "You are incorrect. I repeat, Catholics do not believe in salvation by works. I repeat, nothing we could ever do could ever merit heaven. I repeat again, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT TEACH THAT WE MUST SATISFY HOLY GOD BY FAITH PLUS GOOD WORKS. We can't satisfy God by our works. I repeat, we can't satisfy God by our morality. I repeat again, we can't satisfy God by being good people in any way whatsoever. We are in dire need of a saviour. We need a redeemer. We need a God-man who can merit heaven for us and become the justice of God for us. We need God's pure and free gift of salvation."

And now, you write this: "Catholics think they are proving that salvation is by our 'works'"

The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines a bigot as "one intolerantly devoted to his or her own prejudices or opinions".

What should our conclusion be?

carson,

you've got to admit whether you agree with it or not, the Catholic church relies on works quite a bit. what are all those sacraments all about?

you're a unique catholic (not saying that in a derogatory way). most catholics i talk to when going door-to-door answer the question "do you know 100% sure you are going to heaven if you die right now" with a response like this "well i just do the best i can and try to live right and help people" every catholic i have met (in person) has said something very similar to this. they believe in works salvation even if you don't. where do they get that?

Carson Weber,

You said, 'The Merriam-Webster Dictionary defines a bigot as "one intolerantly devoted
to his or her own prejudices or opinions". What should our conclusion be?

Ray is saying, 'My conclusion is that I think you don't like me very much. I am not your enemy; I'm your acquaintance who is in Christ.' Secondly, you said, 'What should our conclusion be?' I think you should have used a singular form, "What should my conclusion be?' Some other Catholics might believe that this is what the guy actually believes, but it happens to be different than what we have been taught. I don't think you are a bigot; just a person who has inadvertently been taught some theological error.

You are correct by saying that in one post I said you people believe in salvation by faith and works and the latter one that you believe in making Heaven your home by works. I believe you probably have a true faith in Jesus but you people are forever bringing your achievements to Christ via the sacraments and other things. All Jesus asks for to become a member of the 'called out ones' is faith in Himself. Martin Luther was a quick spiritual learner. Even the Prophet Habakkuk believed that justification was by our faith in the Triune God. [Habakkuk 2:4] Faith in this instance is the word, {emoonaw} fidelity or a steady trust. Christians trust in the Lord for their hope of Heaven; He will never disappoint us.

i gotta say that's the first time i've ever seen anyone use a quote from Habakkuk on here.

Hi Harvest,

You wrote, "you've got to admit whether you agree with it or not, the Catholic church relies on works quite a bit. what are all those sacraments all about?"

The sacraments are not good works. These are two separate issues. It is in the sacraments that we enter and renew the New Covenant. Sacrament is a word that comes from the Latin sacramentum, which means "oath". One cannot enter into a covenant without taking an oath or a sacrament, and covenants are renewed by means of oaths.

you're a unique catholic

The reason you think this is because I am catechized. I know the Catholic faith pretty well.

most catholics i talk to when going door-to-door answer the question "do you know 100% sure you are going to heaven if you die right now" with a response like this "well i just do the best i can and try to live right and help people"

To make a long story short, the majority of Catholics (esp. in the US) under the age of 55 need to have the Gospel re-presented to them. These Catholics do not know the Catholic faith, and the downside is that many of them - while ignorant of the Faith - think they have it. You'll hear the standard "I know the Catholic faith. I went to twelve years of Catholic school," which amounts to nothing considering the poor state of Catholic schools on the whole in the United States.

This re-presenting of the Gospel to baptized Christians (essentially, this "evangelization") is what the Catholic Church terms The New Evangelization, and it is a monumental task that the Church has in front of her. It is one that I believe I am called to partake in.

Carson Weber,

You seem rather enthused with telling us what the official R.C. view is for our consideration. We want to know the official view from the Magisterium, but we feel you ignore the Scripture, which is the final authority. After all the Bible, the Word of God, is from Him and, think of it, He even made the souls of the Magisterium who contridict, at times, our Christ of God and His words of truth for our edification. Justification by faith, Romans 5:1,Habakkuk 2:4; No condemnation of Hell for those in Christ, Romans 8:1; No separation from Christ or His love, Romans 8:33-39; Eternal life starts when we believe in Christ not a reward ministered at the end of the Christian life, John 3:16, 5:25, 6:35; I John 5:13. If it is never ending life then even our sins as Christians cannot disannul what He has done for us at the Cross, or what He is doing in us by way of the ministry of the Holy Spirit. We may be chastened while on earth so we will become for like Him and so that He will not have to condemn us at His judgment. [I Corinthians 11:32]

Ask one of your Biblical professors the meaning of my last sentence; I think we would like to know what he or she sees in this passage from the Corinthians.

Carson said --
Are you trying to say, in effect, that 1 Corinthians 3 doesn't say the Christian will suffer loss when his works are burned up?

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Thankfully 1Cor 3 can't be bent enough to make it somehow say "purgatory is legit".

For one thing - 1Cor3 says the WORKS are burned if inferior material is used NOT the person.

But Purgatory says the WORKS done in this world remain behind - while the PERSON is the one in the torment of purgatory.

1Cor 3 says NOTHING about the works WAITING to be burned only AFTER the person has died.

But Purgatory demands that it only begin AFTER the death of the person.

1Cor 3 says the WORKS are the teaching ministry of the evengelist as MATERIAL built on the ONE and ONLY foundation Jesus Christ.

But the Catholic view of Purgatory is that the PERSON is to suffer personal torment NOT that their teaching suffer or are burned or are purged away - and it also insists (by contrast) that the One foundation of the church is the Papacy.

There are not enough ways to bend and twist 1Cor 3 so as to "make it" say "purgatory is really what I meant to address".

Carson said --

In the end, you find the "Bible Christian" saying "Oh, but he doesn't really mean what he says" or "He's really saying something completely different than what he is saying" such as in 1 Peter 3:18-21 - "eight persons were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you".

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Indeed 1Peter 3 says "baptism now saves you NOT the magic touch of sacramental water BUT rather INSTEAD - the informed APPEAL to God for a clean conscience"

But then the RC view needs that contrast to be "deleted" for the survival of their view of the sacrament (the magic waters) of Baptism.

Doesn't work in 1Peter 3 and doesn't work in 1Cor 3.

Any wonder that some catholics refuse to even study this with non-Catholics AND to pay attention to the details IN the text?

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 07, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Ray and Harvest --

Works are absolutely NOT essential to come into the Kingdom of God and become a covenant child of the Heavenly King. That is SALVATION BY GRACE. And, if I may say so, by GRACE ALONE. That is why infant baptism into the covenantal kingdom is such a good thing -- it is done to one who can do NOTHING to merit the salvation he/she is receiving.

HOWEVER --

The gaining of eternal life is QUITE ANOTHER STORY!! I have told this to Ray until I am blue in the face, but I guess one more time will not do much more to deepen the hue.

Salvation is being saved from something. In our case, it is being saved from the general condemnation of mankind which we inherit as children of Adam. (Rom. 5:12). THAT is free. It makes us children of the King. As such, we have an inheritance which is laid up for us in Heaven.

Inheritances are also free -- BUT -- an inheritance can be lost or given away. This is why we stress the necessity of good works. Good works are the way we "keep covenant" once we are in. A reading of the covenantal principles found in the OT will show you this. Covenants can either be kept or broken.

At the end of the covenant, the child receives either the inheritance or disinheriting. That is what the Judgment Day is all about:

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Judgment Day.

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

According to WHAT? Say that one more time loudly so Ray can hear you.

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing Ahem!!! Also called "good works" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Who by doing "good works" seek for immortality -- they will be given eternal life.

Now tell me that "works" are not important to the Christian!!

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

And the evil gits just the opposite because either they are covenant breakers, or they have made covenant with the evil one.

No escaping. Everyone stands and is judged.

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Everyone, even the Jew!! Even the OSAS believer!! Even the practitioners of "sola fidei" person. Guess what? Everyone MEANS everyone!!

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Looka dat!!! God even REPEATS Himself here, too. Good works bring glory, peace, and honor!!! And this is IN HEAVEN! After the Judgment!!

Yes, good works are ESSENTIAL to bring to the Judgment Seat of Christ because according to the above Scriptures, they are the STANDARD by which our covenant keeping (or breaking) is determined.

And Ray, you ARE a bigot!! A very nice one. A very polite one. But according to Webster's dictionary standard, which Carson gave to you, you are. You simply do NOT LISTEN!! And you are so entrenched in your beliefs you cannot hear. You have been told repeatedly that we are not saved by works.

Don't listen.

You have been told repeatedly that there is a difference between salvation and eternal life.

Don't listen.

WHAT are we supposed to do with you?

Ah well, God bless ya anyway. Maybe some day you will "hear" what we are saying instead of thinking that you have heard us when it is the voices in your head from that school in Meyerstown. (Said in love, no animus or sarcasm intended.)



Brother Ed

Bob Ryan --

I don't NEED 1 Corin. 3 to prove purgatory. In fact, I consider it somewhat of a weak verse when compared to the reality of Romans and the Greek in Romans 3 and 4 regarding how God deals with mankind.

The specific word for this is "logizomai" and its primary use is that it is an accounting term. It quite simply means to "count what is there". In other words, when an accountant is counting his money, he only counts WHAT IS THERE!!

And in the same way, when God looks at us, He only counts WHAT IS REALLY THERE. IF we are righteous by our deeds done in the Holy Spirit with our cooperation, then we are indeed righteous because we have been "doing righteousness". ("He that doeth righteousness is righteous." (1 John 3:7).

Therefore, if I am NOT righteous because I have done sin, and I have neither repented nor been absolved of my sin, then somehow that sin has to be removed from me before I can enter the presence of the Father.

Thus the need for purgation.

So you go ahead and believe in the legal fantasy called "imputed righteousness" or "forensic justification" all you wish. It is not in the Bible and the Greek does not support it at all.

Brother Ed

I just had a kind of funny thought regarding this.

Protestant view of justification:

Mother sees little Jimmy come in covered with mud and says "How nice to see you. Come in and sit down at the dinner table and have dinner!! I'm so glad your home." Mother is delusional and out of touch with reality.

Catholic view of justification:

Mother sees little Jimmy come in covered with mud and says "I'm glad to see you but you are FILTHY!! In ya go!!" And she tosses him in the tub and scrubs him till he shines!!! Mother deals with reality and need for a clean kid to come to the table.

I am curious how a person who believes one must be baptized to be saved would answer in accord with that theology when they look at the following passage.

Luke 22:39-43, “One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

A.T. Roberston writes in Word Pictures in the NT :
Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise (Sêmeron met' emou esêi en tôi paradeisôi). However crude may have been the robber's Messianic ideas Jesus clears the path for him. He promises him immediate and conscious fellowship after death with Christ in Paradise which is a Persian word and is used here not for any supposed intermediate state; but the very bliss of heaven itself. This Persian word was used for an enclosed park or pleasure ground (so Xenophon). The word occurs in two other passages in the N.T. #2Co 12:4; Re 2:7 in both of which the reference is plainly to heaven. Some Jews did use the word for the abode of the pious dead till the resurrection, interpreting "Abraham's bosom" #Lu 16:22 f. in this sense also. But the evidence for such an intermediate state is too weak to warrant belief in it.

Frogman --

You need to study your Old Testament Judaism better.

The high priest does NOT offer offerings for PERSONAL SINS. He is a special priest with a special offering which he offered once a year. It was for the covenantal nation and it forgave the corporate sins of the nation as a whole and renewed the covenant with God's nation/people for another year.

That sacrifice, of course, is YOM KIPPUR.

Hebrews 9 and 10 shows us that Christ, as our Great High Priest, entered the Holiest of All in the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and offered a PERMANENT YOM KIPPUR of His own Blood as the spotless lamb of God.

THAT, sir, is why the Church will never fail. There is a permanent and continuous YOM KIPPUR in Heaven, ever present before the Father to pay for all the sins of the Church as a corporate covenanal entity.

Our personal sins have nothing to do with Christ's role as our Great High Priest. They have to do with our personal relationship and covenant with God and therefore, we must confess and repent as it says in 1 John 1: 9. Thus the need for the Sacraments.

When the Old Covenant became the New, certain things were discontinued. Other things were continued, but in a changed form because now Christ is the fulfillment in those ceremonies. There is no indication that there was any change in the role of a high priest. There is, however, a very STRONG indication that the work of the "mediatorial priesthood" was to continue with the apostles.

If not, then WHY (you must answer this) did Jesus give to the first bishops, the apostles, the power and authority to forgive sins? That is what priests did in the Old Covenant, isn't it?

You see? Some things pass on from Old to New Covenant. The difference is that in the New Covenant, we no longer have a lamb to offer. We now offer THE Lamb.

THAT, my friend, is what the Eucharist is all about!!!

Brother Ed

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:

And Ray, you ARE a bigot!! A very nice one. A very polite one. But according to Webster's dictionary standard, which Carson gave to you, you are. You simply do NOT LISTEN!! And you are so entrenched in your beliefs you cannot hear. You have been told repeatedly that we are not saved by works.

Don't listen.

You have been told repeatedly that there is a difference between salvation and eternal life.

Don't listen.

WHAT are we supposed to do with you?

Click to expand...

Brother Ed,
I hate to break the news to you,
But have you ever heard of the old children's expression "It takes one to know one."

How many times do we have tell you? When will you start listening to us?

Eph.2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
SALVATION IS THE GIFT OF GOD.

Rom.6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
THE GIFT OF GOD IS ETERNAL LIFE.

SALVATION = ETERNAL LIFE

DHK

I am also curious about how the RCC decided whether or not to include certain books in their Bible. 1 Enoch is quoted in the NT. Why are 3 and 4 Maccabees left out? There are a number of books included in the Septuagint that are left out in the Roman Catholic Bible. Why?

Originally posted by CatholicConvert:
Frogman --

You need to study your Old Testament Judaism better.

The high priest does NOT offer offerings for PERSONAL SINS. He is a special priest with a special offering which he offered once a year. It was for the covenantal nation and it forgave the corporate sins of the nation as a whole and renewed the covenant with God's nation/people for another year.

That sacrifice, of course, is YOM KIPPUR.

Hebrews 9 and 10 shows us that Christ, as our Great High Priest, entered the Holiest of All in the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and offered a PERMANENT YOM KIPPUR of His own Blood as the spotless lamb of God.

THAT, sir, is why the Church will never fail. There is a permanent and continuous YOM KIPPUR in Heaven, ever present before the Father to pay for all the sins of the Church as a corporate covenanal entity.

Our personal sins have nothing to do with Christ's role as our Great High Priest. They have to do with our personal relationship and covenant with God and therefore, we must confess and repent as it says in 1 John 1: 9. Thus the need for the Sacraments.

When the Old Covenant became the New, certain things were discontinued. Other things were continued, but in a changed form because now Christ is the fulfillment in those ceremonies. There is no indication that there was any change in the role of a high priest. There is, however, a very STRONG indication that the work of the "mediatorial priesthood" was to continue with the apostles.

If not, then WHY (you must answer this) did Jesus give to the first bishops, the apostles, the power and authority to forgive sins? That is what priests did in the Old Covenant, isn't it?

You see? Some things pass on from Old to New Covenant. The difference is that in the New Covenant, we no longer have a lamb to offer. We now offer THE Lamb.

THAT, my friend, is what the Eucharist is all about!!!

Brother Ed

Click to expand...

Heb 10:11-14, "And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

According to the passage in Hebrews 10 why offer Jesus again and again when it says, "For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." ?

I don't think you are addressing the post concerning baptismal salvation to me are ya? I am Missionary Baptist, not Campbellite. Ok, I will try to answer this post.


You need to study your Old Testament Judaism better.

You are right about this, can't ever study enough can we.



The high priest does NOT offer offerings for PERSONAL SINS. He is a special priest with a special offering which he offered once a year. It was for the covenantal nation and it forgave the corporate sins of the nation as a whole and renewed the covenant with God's nation/people for another year. That sacrifice, of course, is YOM KIPPUR.

I also am not a Jew. This old covenant and all types the preisthood represented are now fulfilled in Christ the Lamb of God. He alone is sufficient for salvation, where ever he may call any one of His elect. This is why Paul says the old has passed away. If I still require an earthly priesthood manifested then the sacrifice of the Son of God was not sufficient. If I require a priesthood yet to intercede, then there is not one mediator between God and man. The Bible explicitly states there is one mediator. This one mediator is the Son of God. He does not require the assistance of any man including myself to intercede on behalf of his people both corporately and individually.

Who offered the peace offerings and other various offerings of individuals? I am asking because I don't know and I always thought it was the High Priest. Regardless, the old has passed away and Christ fulfills the entire function of every typical preistly duty the Temple involved. Remember all this is after the heavenly pattern that Moses was shown, it is not the pattern for the heavenly, but according to all that Moses was shown.

That sacrifice, of course, is YOM KIPPUR.

I am a hill billy, Jewish words don't impress me much. Where in the Catholic heiarchy is the scapegoat? How is this office fullfilled in your continuation of the OT types? Why did Paul say let us go forth without the camp? What was the camp? Why did Paul not want to camp with the Israelites? Why did he say we serve at an altar where they have no right to eat? Because all the types and shadows were fulfilled in Christ Jesus. This is want is meant by once and for all. There is therefore now no condemnation for those that are in Christ...there is a good story to tell that diry little boy as he sits at the table. But the story says those in Christ Jesus, how does the church put one in Christ? Can the church dispense faith?

Hebrews 9 and 10 shows us that Christ, as our Great High Priest, entered the Holiest of All in the "temple made without hands" in Heaven and offered a PERMANENT YOM KIPPUR of His own Blood as the spotless lamb of God.

The best I can tell from the above I don't think we disagree with this. But we do seem to disagree in the result of this. Remember when Paul said the old is now dead meats etc. Now all things are fulfilled in Christ. He most certainly is the lamb of God, he is also the fulfillment of all other types and shadows in the OT system.

THAT, sir, is why the Church will never fail. There is a permanent and continuous YOM KIPPUR in Heaven, ever present before the Father to pay for all the sins of the Church as a corporate covenanal entity.

So this is why you have developed the doctrine of purgatory. Christ loved the church and gave his blood for it, but this is not sufficient to carry any members [who are believers scripturally speaking] into heaven, because of the weakness of the flesh men will sin, therefore there must be something to cleanse them after baptism thus you have purgatory. The Bible says the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. It doesn't say there is a sacrifice made that has need of a separate cleansing. Do you see, what you say is that Christ loves the church, but you remove the people from that church. You make the church supernatural and exalt it above Christ. We can discuss church truth if you wish. But we will save it for another thread. But let me just say that I believe through the Grace of Jesus I shall be saved, even as Peter believed. You know he was a Baptist don't ya you see, you place salvation in the church and not in the Son of God. The Son of God purchased the church with his blood. How can something having need to have been purchased as such, eternally save?

Our personal sins have nothing to do with Christ's role as our Great High Priest. They have to do with our personal relationship and covenant with God and therefore, we must confess and repent as it says in 1 John 1: 9. Thus the need for the Sacraments. Apart from the Son of God we have no relationship with God, the sacraments at best are works offered up as Cain offered up the works of his hand. But righteous Abel approached God only through the Blood of an innocent sacrifice and before this God taught Adam the way to the Throne of Grace. The thread of Blood goes farther back than the law and the shadows and Paul says the Law cannot and did not disannul the promise.

When the Old Covenant became the New, certain things were discontinued. Other things were continued, but in a changed form because now Christ is the fulfillment in those ceremonies. There is no indication that there was any change in the role of a high priest. There is, however, a very STRONG indication that the work of the "mediatorial priesthood" was to continue with the apostles.

The Old Covenant passed away and all things are fulfilled in Christ. There is no indication of a change in the role of a high priest, I agree with this, but the High priest is now in the heaven, seated at the right hand of God having by himself purged us of our sins and having gone into the holy of holies and not without blood. It is odd how the rest of your post claims Christ as High priest and the Catholic hiearchy as representatives of other priestly offices and then here you claim there is no indication of a change in the role of a high priest. I agree with this if you mean the High Priest our Lord and Saviour now in heaven making intercession for the saints. But if you are trying to now install the office of Pope or any other priest in any other place, then I cannot agree with you. You completely dismantle any confidence I had in believing you received Christ as your High priest. Not in your argument that there is a need for other representative priests, but in the claim there is no change indicated in the role of the high priest. Now you are tying this to an apostolic office that has passed away even as the Old Covenant. This is why I can say the Bible is inerrant and you cannot. You can say it, but you can't believe it because you have to wait and hear the final word of your High Priest in Rome. Where is the indication of a need for any mediator other than the ONE the Bible names?

If not, then WHY (you must answer this) did Jesus give to the first bishops, the apostles, the power and authority to forgive sins? That is what priests did in the Old Covenant, isn't it? You are right, I must answer this and I will when we discuss church truth. Jesus set this in the local visible church, it is not a power that one or any group of men possess. This is for those who continuously disregard the order and faith of the church and for discipline purposes only, there is not power given here to have over the eternal salvation of any other. Again, God alone can forgive sins. To retain sins means the offense unrepented of and this person cannot be in fellowship with the local body. This person can return to the church and by repentance be received again, or this person can repent and enjoy the forgiveness of God and never return to the church. By the same token the person can return to the church, show evidence of repentance [fooling men] but never repent before God and never receive forgiveness. This is not something that would happen to a child of God, but I use it as an example to explain what I believe to be true of the powers given to the church body and not to a man or a group of men.

We will discuss church truth in another post. This one is long enough.

You see? Some things pass on from Old to New Covenant. The difference is that in the New Covenant, we no longer have a lamb to offer. We now offer THE Lamb. No, all things in the Old have passed away because they are fulfilled wholly in the Lamb of God. He is the only mediator between God and man.

I found th3e following interesting about how the RCC views non-christians and salvation.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[338]

Catholic Convert & Carson Weber,

Catholic Convert said, 'Ray and Harvest -'Works are absolutely NOT essential to come into the Kingdom of God and become a covenant child of the Heavenly King. That is SALVATION BY GRACE. And, if I may say so, by GRACE ALONE. That is why infant baptism into the covenantal kingdom is such a good thing -- it is done to one who can do NOTHING to merit the salvation he/she is receiving.

We too agree that your first three sentence are right. I will not speak for Harvest about the infant baptism aspect, because I do not know what Harvest believes. So we are not bigots until we enter into our discussion about 'works' or 'good works.' It is here that we step over the line into bigotry. Interesting.

HOWEVER --

The gaining of eternal life is QUITE ANOTHER STORY!!

Ray is saying, 'When you use the concept of ' . . . gaining eternal life' you have moved away from grace and are in the theological mud of 'achievement/works.' Sorry God speaking through the Apostle Paul says in Ephesians 2:8-10 that we are ' . . . saved by Christ's grace through faith' plus nothing.

I have told this to Ray until I am blue in the face, but I guess one more time will not do much more to deepen the hue.

Ray is saying, 'I loved your clever phraseology about you hypothetical blue face.'

'Salvation is being saved from something.

Ray is saying, 'Ed I agree with you that salvation is being saved from something.'

In our case, it is being saved from the general condemnation of mankind . . . ' which we inherit as children of Adam. (Rom. 5:12).

Ray is saying, 'In our case . . . suggests that only Catholics are free from Divine condemnation. This is rather a narrow view of what Christ is doing in the lives of all other denominations.'

THAT is free. It makes us children of the King. As such, we have an inheritance which is laid up for us in Heaven.

Ray is saying, 'All sinners become part of the kingdom when they have faith in Jesus Christ. [John 3:16]

Inheritances are also free -- BUT -- an inheritance can be lost or given away.

Ed, you are confusing the natural realm of earthly inheritances with spiritual issues. I sure wish you knew the Bible better, it sure would make things easier. You put your foot in your own mouth. Read I Peter 1:4-5 and then tell us all that we can lose our Heavenly inheritance.

This is why we stress the necessity of good works.

Ray is saying, 'Yes, you sure do emphasize good works. Carson Weber seemed to say the opposite in his posts.'

Good works are the way we "keep covenant" once we are in.

Ray is saying, 'This really suggests salvation by works, because in your own words you said, "This is the way we keep covenant." In other words your effort and goodness keeps you in covenant with Christ.'

A reading of the covenantal principles found in the OT will show you this. Covenants can either be kept or broken.

Ray is saying, 'Now you are telling Christians that we must obey the O.T. dispensation or at least collate it with the New Covenant of grace. You are a lot like the Galatians Christians that Paul had to deal with in his epistle.

At the end of the covenant, the child receives either the inheritance or disinheriting.

Ray is saying, 'Wow, I lost you on this above point. You must/might be in the Old Testament dealing with earthly inheritances. Christ is not earthy He is spiritual and eternal.

That is what the Judgment Day is all about:

Ray is saying, 'Sinners go before the Great White Throne Judgment after the Millennial Age when Christ is on this earth and just before the saved see the New Heaven and the New earth. Christians will go before the Judgment Seat of Christ right after Christ takes His church home to Heaven at the time of the rapture.

Ed said, 'Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Judgment Day.

Ray is saying, 'Paul is speaking of the lost person/sinner in Romans 2:1-5. In verse six he is saying that sinners will be judged by their deeds, which are evil. In verse seven Paul is saying that the Christian will continue in well doing. In verse eight Paul speaks again of the sinner. Verse nine is also dealing with the sinner, but in ten the saints will work righteousness while they are on this earth. Why? Because it is our nature to do so. Christians are indwelled by the Spirit. [I John 3:9]


Ed, said, ' vs.6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: According to WHAT? Say that one more time loudly so Ray can hear you. 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing Ahem!!! Also called "good works" seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Who by doing "good works" seek for immortality -- they will be given eternal life.'

Ray is saying, 'You are right in your statement above. Christians will produce good works; I agree with you here. But, keep in mind that our good works are not something that we bring to Christ and in effect say, 'Now am I worthy of Heaven?' The Book of James indicates that every true Christian will have good works.



Now tell me that "works" are not important to the Christian!!

Ray is saying, 'I agree again they are important but are not our 'candy' that we give to the Lord in trying to please the Lord so we are somehow now worthy of Heaven and everlasting life.'

No escaping. Everyone stands and is judged.

Ray is saying, I agree with you Ed but at two unique judgments as listed above.

Ed is saying, 'Everyone, even the Jew!! Even the OSAS believer!! Even the practitioners of "sola fidei" person. Guess what? Everyone MEANS everyone!!

Ray is saying, 'I agree that Jews, Gentiles, people who believe in OSAS and people who believe in faith alone, Catholics, if they know and love Jesus are all included in His plan of salvation.

Ed said, '10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew
first, and also to the Gentile: Looka dat!!! God even REPEATS Himself here, too. Good works bring glory, peace, and honor!!!

Ray is saying, Yes Christ through Paul makes this final emphasis.

Ed said, 'Yes, good works are ESSENTIAL to bring to the Judgment Seat of Christ because according to the above Scriptures, they are the STANDARD by which our covenant keeping (or breaking) is determined.

Ray is saying, 'Both you Ed and Carson's problem is that you believe and have been taught that there is only one judgment and one judgment day, on the last day of human history. If a person arrives at the Judgment Seat of Christ it is to be evaluated for their 'good works', as duly noted in I Corinthians chapter 3:11-15. I'll write you a thousand dollar check from my bank if you can find one Christian/saint at the Great White Throne Judgment. [Revelation 20:11-15] If there is but one judgment and one Judgment Day why did the Lord call them by two different names? {the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment}

Ed said, 'And Ray, you ARE a bigot!! A very nice one. A very polite one. But according to Webster's dictionary standard, which Carson gave to you, you are.'

Ray is saying, 'If I were a bigot I would be saying things like, "No Catholics will be in Heaven because of this or that. I don't say that or think that. Furthermore, if I were a bigot I would be disagreeing with everything that Catholics believe and/or everything that the Magisterium says. There are some doctrines that the Magisterium got right. I agree with salvation through Christ, the virgin birth, Original Sin and many other things that the Catholic Church believes, but I will not 'swallow' the errors that you folks so readily consume.

You simply do NOT LISTEN!!

Ray is saying, 'I not only listen but I hear what you both say. But I will never agree that the traditions of the Catholic Church are equal or greater than the Word of God, the Bible.

And you are so entrenched in your beliefs you cannot hear. You have been told repeatedly that we are not saved by works.

Ray is saying, 'I could say the same of you; that you are so entrenched in your belief system that you cannot hear the truth.'

Ed said, '

WHAT are we supposed to do with you?

Ray is saying, 'Place me in what ever mold you desire; but pay me the courtesy of not only hearing what I say, but really listening to what I believe is the truth coming from the Lord.'

Ed said, 'Ah well, God bless ya anyway.'

Ray is saying, 'Offering a Divine blessing after your personal, castigation is not in order.'

Ed said, ' . . . in the Maybe some day you will "hear" what we are saying instead of thinking that you have heard us when it is the voices in your head from that school in Meyerstown.'

Ray is saying, 'Christians believe that the Holy Spirit is our Teacher as noted in [John 14:26; I John 2:27] This is good teaching that you should offer to your Catholic clinentel; St. John was not saying this just to the Magisterium; he was offering this truth to the Christian Church; all of those who have a lively faith in Jesus Christ.

Ed said, (Said in love, no animus or sarcasm intended.)

Ray is saying, 'Christ offers to sinners eternal life as His gift. His covenant of grace is not dependant on human effort but He does require of all sinners, faith in Him and His work accomplished on the Cross for us. His covenant is eternal and it cannot be broken from His perspective. [John 3:16; John 6:37; Romans 8:1] We can break in our fellowship with Him [I John 1:7] but our relationship to Christ is eternal. [I John 5:11,13,18]

To anyone knowing the Sovereignty of God, this is the way that it must be.

According to this the following scripture is error and should replace "Jesus" with "Church".

Note however:

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

I found th3e following interesting about how the RCC views non-christians and salvation.

The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."[325]
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] "the first to hear the Word of God."[327] The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",[328] "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."[329]

840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

842 The Church's bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331]

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."[332]

844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333]

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334]

"Outside the Church there is no salvation"

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336]

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337]

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[338]

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