Questions for Catholics

My comments are in italics.

Brother Ed

PS I apologize for being tart with you the other night. I was in a considerably bad humor that evening. </font>[/QUOTE]In my marriage to my wife the quality of our relationship is dependent upon our level of commitment. But the fact that I am married does not change. So it is with God. The quality of my walk with God is contingent upon my commitment to Him. It is not contingent upon God. But my salvation does not waver upon whether or not I love Him more or less than someone else. My salvation is secured in Jesus. He invited me to the banquet but I was the one who accepted the invitation. Once I have accepted the invitation I cannot unaccept the invitation after I have attended the banquet. Many are called but few are chosen.

If salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ then how can it be broken by works? If one is born again by faith in Jesus Christ how can one be unborn by works?

 

In my marriage to my wife the quality of our relationship is dependent upon our level of commitment. But the fact that I am married does not change. So it is with God. The quality of my walk with God is contingent upon my commitment to Him. It is not contingent upon God. But my salvation does not waver upon whether or not I love Him more or less than someone else.

You are still not getting it, sir. Go read Deut. 28-29 to see the terms of a covenant. One thing I hope you will notice is that a covenant is NOT permanent. It is breakable.

The same thing exists with your wife. If you are a nasty cad to her, she is going to sever fellowship with you. Oh, you will be married still, but you will definitely NOT being enjoying it!!

That is what "venial sins" are. They are those sins which break our fellowship with God and make us miserable. We do not enjoy the comfort of His presence with us, for He is "in another room" so to speak, and will continue so until we come in repentance and ask His forgiveness.

Now, my friend, go commit ADULTERY and tell me if you still have a marriage covenant when your wife finds out! That covenant is OVER -- TOAST -- DONE -- FINITO!! You will no longer be married, unless you BEG forgiveness and only IF she decides to give you one more chance.

That is a description of mortal sin. It completely severs the relationship between us and God. Do you know why that is? Because in choosing sin, we choose to covenant with the will of the evil one and commit spiritual adultery. Take a word tour of the Bible and notice how many times God compares sin to adultery and harlotry. There is a very good reason for that.

The marital bed is the physical picture of the unseen love union between man and wife. And believe me, if you do not have a love union with your wife, if you are not in union of mind, will, and soul, if there is animus between you for offenses, there is not going to be any physical union!!

BET ON IT!!

In like manner, the works we do in keeping God's Law, both works of abstention from sin as well as positive works of charity, are the outward evidence of the union of our love and will with God. When we commit sin, we "make love to the devil". We covenant with him and tell God that He is not as important as our divine lover as the evil one is.

BAAAAAAD.

And certain sins (adultery, murder, apostasy) are so grievious that they totally sever the covenant union between us, just as adultery between you and your wife would END your marriage.

Some people on this planet are walking corpses and don't know it. They were entered into the family of God by grace and tossed it all away for a life of sin.

That is why on the Judgment Day, their Judgment will be far more grievous, for they sinned against God as a family member. Pagans who never heard will be held to a lessor account than they.

I hope I made that clearer. I am trying. You just have to remember....covenants are breakable, for a covenant is a relationship/union and we can leave a relationship with another.

What you are talking about is a contract. Contracts are unbreakable. But our relationship to God is not a contract. It is a covenant -- the New Covenant.

Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,


Brother Ed

 

And certain sins (adultery, murder, apostasy) are so grievious that they
totally sever the covenant union between us . . .

Another Catholic presupposition. I don't recall that Jesus said there was a listing of little sins and larger sins. In the Lord God's mind, sin is sin. It all needs atonement. Of course, in our minds we say murder, for example, is worse than false accusiations against a friend, because people have to suffer more for murder than not telling the truth. God hates all sin. In other words, mortal and venial sins are a human concoction.

just as adultery between you and your wife would END your marriage.

Ray is saying, Hypothetical! Adultery would probably end my marriage but there are women and men who have been willing to forgive their partner in marriage and move on.

In the O.T. the Bible says that the Lord is married to the backslider; I'll let you search for this verse.

The Lord never breaks covenant with His born of the Spirit people. We break covenant with Him when or if we sin. Our relationship with Christ is not dissolved only our fellowship with Him is destroyed. [I John 1:7] We have no peace in our heart if we rebel against our Lord. If we persist in sin He comes with His chastening hand. [Hebrews chapter 12]

 

Obvious case of Protestant myopia:

1Jo 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

In the Lord God's mind, sin is sin.

When scripture indicates otherwise, WHO, sir are you to contradict the Lord?

It all needs atonement. Of course, in our minds we say murder, for example, is worse than false accusiations against a friend, because people have to suffer more for murder than not telling the truth. God hates all sin. In other words, mortal and venial sins are a human concoction.

No, your Protestant paradigm which puts all sins on an equal plane is a human concoction. I showed you the verses. Looks like the Catholic position is far more Biblical.

Ray is saying, Hypothetical! Adultery would probably end my marriage but there are women and men who have been willing to forgive their partner in marriage and move on.

Ray, do you think you could join the rest of us and use the UBB codes to highlite your responses. It would make reading your stuff a whole lot easier.

Adultery is making a covenant with another person. In effect, it nullifies the covenant you have with your covenantal partner. The marriage is severed and destroyed, and even forgiveness cannot totally heal the wounds. Go to the OT and look at how God speaks of unfaithfulness -- covenant breaking. And He calls it "adultery".[/b]

In the O.T. the Bible says that the Lord is married to the backslider; I'll let you search for this verse.

Yes. And in AD 70, He divorced backsliding and adulterous Judaism FOREVER!! You need to go back and re read Deut 28-29 and see the covenantal curses pronounced upon the Jews. These were fulfilled in AD 70 when the wrath of God came upon the Jewish nation in fulfillment of both that covenantal warning as well as Jesus' prophecies against the Jews.

The Lord never breaks covenant with His born of the Spirit people. We break covenant with Him when or if we sin.

Yes, that is correct. And when a covenant is broken, it must be renewed.

Our relationship with Christ is not dissolved only our fellowship with Him is destroyed.

Not at all true. Go back and re read the Parable of the Prodigal. The Prodigal is the picture of the child of God who sins against the Father and leaves the covenantal family and the household. Yes, he remains a son, but he is in the "far country" of sin, and if the Prodigal had died there, he would not have recieved the inheritance which was still waiting for him at the Father's house. He would have died in poverty and wretchedness, a picture of those who spurn the covenantal kingdom of God and go to live in the fields of unrepentant sin, only to find that hell is their final abode.

You really need to study these parables and OT types more closely and make covenantal application of them. You persist in the Protestant error of OSAS and that legal fiction called "imputed righteousness."

 

This is funny.

Bro. Dallas

 

*Catholic Convert,

You probably never studied different commentaries as to the real meaning of I John 5:16. Please, take time to read some other sources.

1John 5:16 says, 'If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto
death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not
unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray
for it.'

This is not a sin unto spiritual death-meaning the second death as found in Revelation 20:14-15. The sinners wages is the second death; [Romans 6:23a] while the gift of God in salvation to the new believer is promised eternal life. [Romans 6:23b] This death in I John 5:16 is ministered by Christ to the backslider who He desires to prematurely take them to Heaven {example} [I Cor. 11:30 & 32] because of their besetting sin. I didn't know your theological understanding was as retarded as you jot down in your post, on this issue. Wow!

All of our sins need His atonement. This is why every Christian is so dependent on His grace and atonement to cover our sins. Of course, in our minds we say murder, for
example, is worse than false accusations against a friend, because people have to suffer more for murder than not telling the truth. God hates all sin.

CC said this. 'Adultery is making a covenant with another person.'

Ray is saying, Only a divorce and remarriage would create another covenant. The Lord God does not bless adultery and then call it a new covenant. Wow! You come up with some personal interpretations. [II Peter 1:20]

CC said, 'In effect, it nullifies the covenant you have with your covenantal partner. The marriage is severed and destroyed,

Ray is saying, 'Priests and ministers council people because the covenant marriage is still in tact. This is why adultery is so grievous.'

CC said, 'and even forgiveness cannot totally heal the wounds.

Ray is saying, It is true that wounds heal very slowly and this is part of being human. People have to deal with it and grow up, but if the one partner continues in adultery divorce is clearly in order. [Matt. 5:32]

CC said, 'Go to the OT and look at how God speaks of unfaithfulness -- covenant breaking. And He calls it "adultery."

Ray is saying, 'Oh, I forgot Catholics live under both the Law and Grace.'


CC said, 'Yes. And in AD 70, He divorced backsliding and adulterous Judaism
FOREVER!!

Ray is saying, 'Romans 11:23-25 says the opposite. The Lord is going to bring in the Israelite people at a future time; after the rapture. I wonder if you ever knew dispensational theology because if you did you would not have your theological foot in your mouth.'

You need to go back and re read Deut 28-29 and see the
covenantal curses pronounced upon the Jews. These were fulfilled in
AD 70 when the wrath of God came upon the Jewish nation in
fulfillment of both that covenantal warning as well as Jesus'
prophecies against the Jews.

Ray is saying, 'I know the Israelite people are partially blinded. [Romans 11:25e] On the other hand, any Israelite today who wants to open his heart to the Lord can be saved this minute.'

Ray is saying, 'The Lord never breaks covenant with His born of the Spirit people. We
break covenant with Him when or if we sin.'

CC said, 'Yes, that is correct. And when a covenant is broken, it must be renewed.'

Ray is saying, 'The covenant needs to be renewed with the Lord, meaning the person need personal forgiveness from the Lord. There is a difference between breaking covenant with the Lord and loss of fellowship with Him. Relationship is eternal. [John 5:24] His gift is eternal life not intermittent life.

CC said, 'Not at all true. Go back and re read the Parable of the Prodigal.

Ray is saying, 'The father of the Prodigal Son did not change his name because he broke covenant with him. The wayward son owned the same name but lost the privileges of living in his father's house. His name remained the same; only the father did not have the closeness/fellowship with the wayward son. If the relationship was destroyed, why did the father look for him every day?

CC said, 'You really need to study these parables and OT types more closely
and make covenantal application of them. You persist in the
Protestant error of OSAS . . . '

Ray is saying, Jesus, John and all the apostles believed in eternal security. [John 10:27-30] Get it? Eternal life [John 5:24; I John 5:13] This truth once you see it will cut out your Catholic 'works righteousness' and 'faith plus works' error.

CC said, 'and that legal fiction called "imputed righteousness.'

Ray is saying, 'Please, exegete Romans 4:6. King David believed in 'imputed righteousness, why not you? Are you spiritually more enlightened than the Prophet David? Fiction or bold face truth? Did Romans 4:6 only come from the Apostle Paul? or did it come straight from the Lord? While Catholics apparently cannot swallow Roman 4:6 the Lord was and is still comfortable with this truth.

After David's adultery and murder he said, 'Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation . . . ' He did not lose his salvation or everlasting life given by Christ to him; he only lost the intimacy that he once experienced with the Lord. Other disciplines and chastisements did, however, follow his trail of misbehavior. I'll let you study that thoroughly.

 

Brother Ed,

What Ray is trying to say - essentially - is that no matter how clear and explicit Scripture (e.g., St. Paul) may be, if you go through the numerous texts that speak of falling from grace, losing Jesus Christ, being cut off from Christ, losing salvation, et cetera, you can simply - with one fell swoop - nullify all of these Scripture passages by simply distinguishing between "fellowship" and "salvation".

Unfortunately, there are millstones awaiting such false prophets that are not to be taken lightly (no pun intended).

 

Then what I stated, I believe in the thread, that you believe the atonement of Christ made a way possible, but you must work to keep that way open.

Then you say you believe salvation is by grace.

Were it not for the grace of God I would agree with you guys that salvation could be lost. But because of Grace we are sustained by God.

The Lord's Prayer, John 17, includes this idea. Hebrews 12 includes this idea.

Good Luck on your test today Carson.

Bro. Dallas

 

Carson Weber,

I have prayed for you today that you will have done well on that exam you spoke about.

Carson, you blew a lot of smoke but I see no substance, merely denials. Jot down, one by one your verses that you think speaks against the perfect security for the sons and daughters of the living God, so I and other brethren can refute them.

The theological ball is in your court.

 

Hi Dallas and Ray,

Thank you for your prayer - I don't believe this exam will be that difficult; I'll just be sitting here at the laptop at our kitchen table for the next 4 hours studying (we have wireless DSL in the house). It's a one question exam that covers the nature of revelation, the Biblical sense of remembrance (Gk. anamnesis), recapitulation, and the theology of mystery (Gk. mysterion).

Paul wrote to the Christian disciples in Galatia, "For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love" (Gal 5).

Go ahead Ray, refute St. Paul.

 

Catholic Convert,

C.C. said, 'Works have everything to do with eternal life and both Jesus and St. Paul say so in
scripture.'

R.B. is saying, 'The Apostle Paul in writing to Titus disagrees with Catholic, philosophy [Colossians 2:8a] about God. In Titus 3:5 Paul says,

'Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration , and renewing of the Holy Spirit.'

R.B. is saying, 'If securing eternal life is dependent on 'works' then it is no longer by free grace. [Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 5:20]

The Apostle Paul has said in effect that our justification is by faith [Habakkuk 2:4b & Romans 5:1 & via His grace. This makes us heirs with Almighty God in sure hope of eternal life. [Titus 3:7]

Those who exegeted and translated The New International Version in speaking about Colossians 2:8 have said,

'See to it that no man takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.'

I like the New Century Version a little better.

'Be sure that no one leads you away with false and empty teaching that is only human, which comes from the ruling spirits of this world, and not from Christ.'

The wicked could care less about theology so what Paul is talking about is a philosophy, a quasi-theology coming from a religious source. Justification by faith and works, penance, and faithfulness to the Mass is this deluted Gospel contrived by the Catholic Magisterium and the papal authority.

The 'doctrines of devils' {daimonions, daheemoneeons} teaching coming from demons includes theologies that 'forbid to marry' and also teach 'abstaining from meats . . . ' These disciplines are not from the Lord God. [I Timothy 4:1-3]

 

That's amazing. Do you ever actually READ the responses I send to you? Or do you just run to fire off another knee jerk reaction given without thought?

The above verse is exactly what I have been saying to you. Salvation is free, having nothing to do with our works, for we cannot do any whatsoever. We are washed in baptism and given the free gift of salvation. We are possessors of eternal life through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And if we continue to be faithful to the covenant, we will inherit eternal life.

Salvation is not eternal life. It is merely being let into the kingdom. The Holy Spirit is called the "earnest of our inheritance in Eph. 1. I have gone over this with you before. An earnest is not the full amount. It is only a downpayment, a part of the full amount with the full amount to come later.

What don't you understand about that concept? God even uses our own language so that we should be able to grasp exactly what he is saying.

Sheeeesh!!

 

How is this a 'free gift' if first I cannot access it except through Baptism?
How is this a 'free gift' if you attach the conditional 'if' to it?

I would agree with you that salvation has different usages in scripture and is not always referring to eternal life. I understand the point concerning the 'earnest'. At what point is this 'free gift' withdrawn from me and what is the cause(s) of this withdrawal. This would be helpful if answered in light of the thought that all this is a 'free gift'. My understanding of a free gift is that which is given to me without cost. Now, this does not deny the need for repentance because the nature of the gift is such that conviction, repentance and regeneration are worked apart from any observation by any person and is simultaneously completed in the individual.

I hope I have described my confusion concerning the concept of Grace you have presented. If you can help me out of this confusion by stating clearly the difference(s) in 'free' and 'earned' as you understand these differences.

Thanks
Bro. Dallas

 

Carson Weber,

C.W. said, 'Paul wrote to the Christian disciples in Galatia, "For freedom Christ has set
us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no
advantage to you. I testify again to every man who receives circumcision
that he is bound to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you
who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For
through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in
Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith
working through love" (Gal 5).

Ray is saying, 'Catholicism and many non-Catholics and Protestants suffer from Galatianism. Yes, they are saved by faith but try to maintain their salvation by 'good works' or by keeping the Law of God. Paul is merely saying that if you try to justify yourself by human achievement, you are falling below your potential and are not submitting to the fact that you are saved by Christ and His gift of righteousness imputed to the human soul. [Romans 5:1; Romans 4:6]

The Apostle Paul up front tells you in verse six that neither circumcision or non-circumcision 'avails anything.' So one thing is for sure; neither circumstance will save your soul or damn it.

Live knowing that His grace abounds toward you [Romans 5:20-21] and you won't have to struggle with the Law or by trying to please the official celebrant at the church and his rules. If you become ' . . . entangled with this yoke of bondage', [Galatians 5:1]then you are fallen short of your understanding of pure grace.

 

Hi Dallas,

You asked, "How is this a 'free gift' if first I cannot access it except through Baptism?"

Because "free" is not predicated of the instrument but of the gift, which is given through the instrument. Baptism is the means of entrance into the New Covenant family of God because one cannot enter into a covenant without swearing an "oath" (latin: sacramentum).

How is this a 'free gift' if you attach the conditional 'if' to it?

How is salvation a free gift if you attach the conditional "if" of faith to it?

Regarding justification, the glory of God and of Christ is the final cause (causa finalis), the mercy of God is the efficient cause (causa efficiens), the Passion of Christ is the meritorious cause (causa meritoria), and the reception of the Sacraments is the instrumental cause (causa instrumentalis).

Essentially, you're mistaking efficient with instrumental causality.

 

Hi Ray,

Your previous post does not address the fact that St. Paul tells those disciples that if they submit once again to the ergos nomou of the Mosaic Law (e.g. circumcision), they will "fall from grace" and Christ will be "of no avail" to them anymore. As long as you fail to show how Paul is incorrect, your OSAS doctrine remains proven incorrect.

 

Carson Weber,

If you are going to think of yourself as a scholar you are going to have to fully respond to what we are saying in our posts.

I showed you that God through Paul told the people that they were not saved either because they experienced the marking in the flesh, or if they never experienced it. To God and Paul it had no saving benefit. 'For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but {only} faith which works by love.' Christians who try to justify themselves by keeping the Law or the rules of the church fall short of understanding and enjoying true freedom in Christ. Our hope is in our faith, trust in Jesus Christ and what He did for us on the Cross and in our hearts and lives by our belief in Jesus. If God doesn't care if we have the mark or the lack thereof, then a Christian could never fall from grace by being circumcised or not being so marked.

The Galatian Church problem was that they believed in Christ by faith, but thought they could keep saved by perfectly obeying the Law of God.

 

Hey, this is great, where else could a hillbilly learn so much latin in just a few short posts?

Useless though it is, I do appreciate your attempts at teaching me a foreign language, maybe I could now add an ESL endorsement to my Teacher's certification.

Bro. Dallas

 

Catholic COnvert, how would you interpret 1 John 5:11-13?

I John 5:11-13, "And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life."

John wrote those things for the purpose that they may know that they have eternal life.

"So that you may know that you have eternal life," is a subordinate final purpose clause.

John 20;31 says, "but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name."

One whois born again knows that he is born again. Just as a baby is born it doesn't have to be told that it is born. It already knows. Salvation is not a "hope so" salvation. It is a definite salvation. Jesus never died to secure a "hope so" salvation.

If the only way to please God is by faith. We walk with God by faith. Our salvation is secure by faith. But the security is Jesus Christ. Christ is the only one who can secure salvation. It is not secured by us. It is offerd to us. We can either accept or reject that free gift.

Matthew 22:1-14, "Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. "And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. "Again he sent out other slaves saying, `Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast." ' "But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. "But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. "Then he ^said to his slaves, `The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. `Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.' "Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests. "But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, and he ^said to him, `Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?' And the man was speechless. "Then the king said to the servants, `Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' "For many are called, but few are chosen."