Christ The Calvinist

The statement, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" is a rather simplistic one. Really, to have to write paragraph upon paragrah in order to understand this statement is really a shock to me. Even a child should be able to understand what this is saying, and surely it takes help to misunderstand it.

This statement is a restrictive characterization. Who believed the gospel when Paul preached it? Did everyone that showed up that day, nearly the whole city? No. Who did, then? As many as were ordained to eternal life. That tells me that only the ones ordained to eternal life, chosen by the Father unto everlasting salvation before the world began, believed the gospel. It stands then that those not chosen, not ordained to eternal life, did not believe. Belief is a condition of election (being a sheep), not the other way around. Don't like that? Ok, here's another text that teaches that - John 10:26 the Lord Jesus says, "but ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep." Why didn't they believe? They weren't sheep. They hadn't been chosen by the Father, ordained to eternal life. Don't like that? John 6:37 the Lord Jesus says, "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me." In verse 44 He says, "no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Want some more? John 8:43 Jesus asks, "why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word." Why couldn't they hear His word? Verse 47 says, "he that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jesus told those same people God wasn't their father, the devil was.

Again and again and again you see that belief is conditioned upon being a sheep, and one is a sheep because he/she was chosen before the world began, thus ordained to eternal life. Find me one that believes and you've found one ordained to eternal life.

RAdam said:

The statement, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" is a rather simplistic one. Really, to have to write paragraph upon paragrah in order to understand this statement is really a shock to me. Even a child should be able to understand what this is saying, and surely it takes help to misunderstand it.

This statement is a restrictive characterization. Who believed the gospel when Paul preached it? Did everyone that showed up that day, nearly the whole city? No. Who did, then? As many as were ordained to eternal life. That tells me that only the ones ordained to eternal life, chosen by the Father unto everlasting salvation before the world began, believed the gospel. It stands then that those not chosen, not ordained to eternal life, did not believe. Belief is a condition of election (being a sheep), not the other way around. Don't like that? Ok, here's another text that teaches that - John 10:26 the Lord Jesus says, "but ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep." Why didn't they believe? They weren't sheep. They hadn't been chosen by the Father, ordained to eternal life. Don't like that? John 6:37 the Lord Jesus says, "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me." In verse 44 He says, "no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Want some more? John 8:43 Jesus asks, "why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word." Why couldn't they hear His word? Verse 47 says, "he that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jesus told those same people God wasn't their father, the devil was.

Again and again and again you see that belief is conditioned upon being a sheep, and one is a sheep because he/she was chosen before the world began, thus ordained to eternal life. Find me one that believes and you've found one ordained to eternal life.

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Great Post RAdam:thumbs:, hope BaptistBob reads and understands!:godisgood:

RAdam said:

The statement, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" is a rather simplistic one. Really, to have to write paragraph upon paragrah in order to understand this statement is really a shock to me. Even a child should be able to understand what this is saying, and surely it takes help to misunderstand it.

This statement is a restrictive characterization. Who believed the gospel when Paul preached it? Did everyone that showed up that day, nearly the whole city? No. Who did, then? As many as were ordained to eternal life. That tells me that only the ones ordained to eternal life, chosen by the Father unto everlasting salvation before the world began, believed the gospel. It stands then that those not chosen, not ordained to eternal life, did not believe. Belief is a condition of election (being a sheep), not the other way around. Don't like that? Ok, here's another text that teaches that - John 10:26 the Lord Jesus says, "but ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep." Why didn't they believe? They weren't sheep. They hadn't been chosen by the Father, ordained to eternal life. Don't like that? John 6:37 the Lord Jesus says, "all that the Father giveth me shall come to me." In verse 44 He says, "no man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." Want some more? John 8:43 Jesus asks, "why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word." Why couldn't they hear His word? Verse 47 says, "he that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." Jesus told those same people God wasn't their father, the devil was.

Again and again and again you see that belief is conditioned upon being a sheep, and one is a sheep because he/she was chosen before the world began, thus ordained to eternal life. Find me one that believes and you've found one ordained to eternal life.

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...yet you write paragraph upon paragraph to prove your view. Go figure.

In a nutshell "Those who were going to have eternal life believed". Salvation by grace through faith. Quite simple.

Posted by OldRegular
You are mistaken. Paul had preached the Gospel to the Jews on the preceding sabbath. On the sabbath in question {Acts 14:44, And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.} Paul was again presenting the Gospel to both Jew and Gentile [verse 45]. The Jews rejected Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Some Gentiles did not.

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Posted by BaptistBob
You're making my point! (Although you are wrong about the composition of the second audience, since the whole city was there at the second meeting, but not the first. Of course God-fearing Gentiles were present the first time, but not the whole city's Gentiles.) Your paragraph above is a response to my comment that Paul did not preach the gospel to them again! I even put "again" in italics so that you could not miss it.

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You are chasing your tail Bob.

I state: "On the sabbath in question {Acts 14:44, And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.} Paul was again presenting the Gospel to both Jew and Gentile [verse 45]." The sabbath in question is the second sabbath with the second audience.

You state: "(Although you are wrong about the composition of the second audience, since the whole city was there at the second meeting, but not the first."

I stated the second audience consisted of both Jew and Gentile and showed that Paul did preach the Gospel again [Verse 45]. You are deliberately misrepresenting my statements as I demonstrate above. I don't understand why you are being so obtuse and confrontational.

If you cannot or refuse to understand what I am saying then read the post by RAdam. He presents a correct and simple explanation of the Scripture in question.:wavey:

RAdam said:

The statement, "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" is a rather simplistic one.

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Sure is.

Really, to have to write paragraph upon paragrah in order to understand this statement is really a shock to me.

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Like the paragraph you just wrote?

Even a child should be able to understand what this is saying, and surely it takes help to misunderstand it.

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Nice.

This statement is a restrictive characterization.

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Right. I said so before you did.

Who believed the gospel when Paul preached it? Did everyone that showed up that day, nearly the whole city? No. Who did, then? As many as were ordained to eternal life.

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Again, I take credit for saying so first.

That tells me that only the ones ordained to eternal life, chosen by the Father unto everlasting salvation before the world began, believed the gospel.

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I said so first.

Belief is a condition of election (being a sheep), not the other way around.

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Nope.

Don't like that?

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Just the facts, please.

Ok, here's another text that teaches that - John 10:26 the Lord Jesus says, "but ye believe not because ye are not of my sheep." Why didn't they believe? They weren't sheep.

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Yes, it does say that. But where's the exegesis? You're simply cherry-picking verses and using them to support your theory.

Here's how Jesus opens the discussion concerning the "sheep" in John 10:8.

All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The "sheep" NEVER followed another prior to Christ's arrival. They are not unbelievers waiting to become believers. They are already numbered among God's believing people and were awaiting the Messiah. Upon his arrival, Christ is honored by them, just they way they honor the Father.

Those who already rejected God's teaching prior to Christ also reject Christ. They would not believe Christ because they would not believe the Father. There is an allusion here to Ez 34, with the backdrop of the blind man being healed in John 9. In Ez 34 the believing sheep of Israel are being abused by their leaders (think of the bind man). One day God will send the True Shepherd, Himself. He will be known by the miracles he performs.

We should discuss the details of this passage. It's fantastic. Sheep are believers, and believers are sheep.

Start and end with Scripture. Don't start with a theory in need of validation.

BaptistBob said:

The "sheep" NEVER followed another prior to Christ's arrival. They are not unbelievers waiting to become believers. They are already numbered among God's believing people and were awaiting the Messiah. Upon his arrival, Christ is honored by them, just they way they honor the Father.

Those who already rejected God's teaching prior to Christ also reject Christ. They would not believe Christ because they would not believe the Father.

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Yes! I have posted something similar to this before but I think you said it better. I agree with your interpretation that the sheep already know God the Father and are waiting for their Messiah, the Son.

OldRegular said:

You are chasing your tail Bob.

I state: "On the sabbath in question {Acts 14:44, And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.} Paul was again presenting the Gospel to both Jew and Gentile [verse 45]." The sabbath in question is the second sabbath with the second audience.

You state: "(Although you are wrong about the composition of the second audience, since the whole city was there at the second meeting, but not the first."

I stated the second audience consisted of both Jew and Gentile and showed that Paul did preach the Gospel again [Verse 45]. You are deliberately misrepresenting my statements as I demonstrate above. I don't understand why you are being so obtuse and confrontational.

If you cannot or refuse to understand what I am saying then read the post by RAdam. He presents a correct and simple explanation of the Scripture in question.:wavey:

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No, I'm not "chasing my tail." You are.

That was the second time Paul spoke in public. I already said that both Jews and Gentiles were in the second audience, so I can't for the life of me understand who you are arguing with. My point was, that they believed after Paul said the gospel is meant for them. He does not repeat the gospel again at that point, so they either believed prior to that point or they did not. However, they did not believe the gospel was for them prior to that. Upon hearing that it was also for them......... they rejoiced.

"I now turn to the Gentiles." That's all Paul said. They either believed the message to the JEWS prior to that, or they did not.

Amy.G said:

Yes! I have posted something similar to this before but I think you said it better. I agree with your interpretation that the sheep already know God the Father and are waiting for their Messiah, the Son.

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Thanks for your kind comment. This is a meaty passage, and part of the overall theme of John regarding the fact that the Jews' attitude towards God is reflected in their attitude towards Christ. I've got a friend who is writing something on this for Trinity Journal or perhaps the Journal of the Evangelical Society.


John 5:24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Hooray Rubato 1. They believed much more what Paul told them. Also Baptist's, up until about the 1900's did not take to themselves the Catholic belief of Christmas, nor that same church's propaganda of Easter.

I was unfamiliar with the term "Good Friday", up until I came in contact with those of the Catholic faith. This was back in the 1930's. I asked "what do you mean by Good Friday"? Why don't you know, they replied, Jesus was crucified on Friday.

I, or none in my Southern Baptist church back then believed this for we believed what we read in His Word, the Bible. Jesus said He would be in the heart of the earth for 72 hours. But low and behold today most all I speak with, in any denomination believe Jesus was born on December 25th, or say it really doesn't make any difference. The important thing to remember is celebrate His birth.

Then they also say we observe Easter for this is when He arose. We do this to remember the day He arose. If just about all today now believe He arose on a Sunday, how can they believe He was crucified on a Friday?

I really hate to say it, but Baptists are just like all of the other denominations, and just cannot get away from the mother church, the Catholic church. I could go on, but I believe you may see my point.

BaptistBob said:

"I now turn to the Gentiles." That's all Paul said. They either believed the message to the JEWS prior to that, or they did not.

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The Gospel is the Gospel Bob, period, and Paul was preaching the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ to all present. Furthermore, regardless of your confusion you are chasing your tail. You have taken a simple truth and, as RAdam said, made it unnessarily complex.:wavey:

Also I notice in your response to RAdam you sure do like to take credit. Rather juvenile, me first, me first, me first!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Ac 13:48 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

If the "ordained/Grace" precedes the "Believe/Faith",

You have a "contradiction" in scripture.

Ordained/Grace can't get to a person unless it passes "THROUGH" the Gateway of "FAITH".

Me4Him said:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Ac 13:48 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

If the "ordained/Grace" precedes the "Believe/Faith",

You have a "contradiction" in scripture.

Ordained/Grace can't get to a person unless it passes "THROUGH" the Gateway of "FAITH".

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On the contrary, you are contradicting Scripture.

First off, I've already addressed Acts 13 (actually, I've just scratched the surface), so putting selected words in bold print doesn't help your argument. (Just between you and me, every word is in bold print in my mind.) Indeed, the fact that you didn't address what I said makes my argument look even stronger.

As for Ephesians 2:8, you apprently are unaware of the meaning. If the English wasn't clear enough (as I believe it is), the Greek clears it up. As explained by the Calvinist Daniel Wallace in Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, it is "grace-through-faith" salvation, not faith-through-grace salvation being addressed there. It is a type of salvation, contrary to "works". The neuter "it" modifies the preceeding concept (containing feminine nouns).

This observation is further supported by the syntactic observation that in verse 9 ("not by works, so that no one can boast.") it would be hard to argue that Paul is saying that faith is not of works or grace is not of works. Rather, it makes the most sense to say that Paul is saying that salvation is not of works. The grammatical and syntactic observations both support my interpretation.

So, salvation is God's gracious gift. It is accessed through faith.

Romans 3:35: God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. Thank God!

OldRegular said:

The Gospel is the Gospel Bob, period, and Paul was preaching the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ to all present.

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Whew! What a relief to see you finally agreeing with me.

Furthermore, regardless of your confusion you are chasing your tail.

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I think someone wrote my name on your tail. You certainly haven't been addressing what I said.

You have taken a simple truth and, as RAdam said, made it unnessarily complex.:wavey:

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:laugh:

Also I notice in your response to RAdam you sure do like to take credit. Rather juvenile, me first, me first, me first!

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Hopefully, he actually understood what I said. You certainly didn't. Perhaps he will correct you in private.

Have a nice evening.

BaptistBob said:

You certainly haven't been addressing what I said.

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BB

You took a straightforward response to a comment by webdog and wandered around it for a day or so, contributing absolutely nothing.

OldRegular said:

BB

You took a straightforward response to a comment by webdog and wandered around it for a day or so, contributing absolutely nothing.

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That's the most aggressive retreat I've witnessed in a long time. :thumbs:

BaptistBob said:

That's the most aggressive retreat I've witnessed in a long time. :thumbs:

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Just like a spoiled brat, have to get in the last word. Junior Member is correct!

OldRegular said:

Just like a spoiled brat, have to get in the last word. Junior Member is correct!

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Sounds more like the pot calling the kettle... :BangHead:

BaptistBob said:

On the contrary, you are contradicting Scripture.

So, salvation is God's gracious gift. It is accessed through faith.

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I was afraid it would be misunderstood,

Let's try this route.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Ac 13:48 as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


For through faith are ye saved by grace

ordained (grace) to eternal life believed.(faith)

In the first it's Faith followed by Grace

In the second, it's Grace followed by faith, as interpreted by calvinist.

The word "Through" has a meaning, which can't be ignored,

and if Grace comes "Through faith", in the first

Then Ordained can not come "BEFORE" believe in the second,

as it is being interpreted.

"IF" we believe, we receive Grace

"IF" we don't believe, no grace.

and we can not be "ordained" to believe, that's the point.

I've gotten to the point that I won't argue these points anymore. Would I personally call Christ a Calvinist? No, emphatically no! But I would call Calvin a follower of Christ. And I do find all five points termed Calvinism not only in the Gospel, but as CHS believed, I believe that they are the Gospel. For those who reject the Doctrines of Grace even hate the Doctrines of Grace, for those who reject a Christ who is defined by these doctrines that declare his sovereignty, I can only think of the verse.......

Luke 19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

We will allow Christ the servant, Christ the healer, Christ the giver of good gifts, Christ the merciful, or even Christ benevolent ruler. But we will not have him as Christ the Sovereign of all things whatsoever comes to pass. Especially,especially, when it comes to our own salvation. Funny how we will ask, pray, petition, even demand him to be sovereign over the salvation of our wives, kids, families, friends, even those we witness to..... just not our own... that is our responsibility.

I am tired of the argument and will not entertain open discussion of the heresy of free will. Why will man demand free will for himself.... and deny the Sovereign of the Universe the right to do as he will among the armies of heaven and the inhabitants of the earth. Here is my definition of free will in man....... Open rebellion against God.

God declares his sovereignty throughout scripture.

Ex 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Isa 46:11 I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ps 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Yet man has determined that in his sovereignty God has chosen to relinquish his sovereignty to give man a chance to prove himself worthy of his free gift of grace. Doesn't that sort of negate the idea of free and the definition of grace.

I know, I know, I have heard it all! I don't exegete, and hermenute properly. Fact is, I cant even spell exegete and hermenute properly. And I don't take into account the proper context. I don't understand Greek or Hebrew. I don't have access to the original manuscripts. Matter of fact I was not even there when God spoke. So I can't be taken too seriously, and must be taken with a grain of salt if taken at all.

At any rate feel free to ridicule, berate, discount and vilify any and everything I have declared. Read of a man who once said that since they hated him, they would hate me.

At any rate feel free to ridicule, berate, discount and vilify any and everything I have declared. Read of a man who once said that since they hated him, they would hate me.

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Not quite sure that was the context it was said in.