Oneness pentecostalism, Christian or Cult

According to # 12 of the 3 essentials in my post where I quoted the salvation test....(i.e.
12) Salvation, or the forgiveness of sins, is by grace through faith. You cannot add anything to Jesus' finished work.
...and DHK's post (here's a quote)

Quote by DHK
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You have posted the same before; it is what your cult believes. If baptism is essential to salvation, then salvation is by works. For baptism is a work
DHK
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MEE, is this true?

 

Eating is essential to life is it not? Yet eating does not impart life.

In the same way, baptism is essential to salvation, yet it does not impart salvation.

 

You've taken your analogy too far. Jesus was not teaching his disciples biology. In other words physical birth did not require eating; neither does the new birth. Both the infant and the new believer are born of the mother and the Father in Heaven respectively. Food is not necessary to be born, only to grow after one is born. First milk is necessary for a new believer (starting with baptism), then meat, for a more mature believer.
DHK

 

I hve had a different experience than you have. One of my friends when i was a teenager was the son of a UPC pastor. I visited his church for a prayer meeting and he knew my background and I knew his but we both prayed together and prayed for needs of people. Nobody tried to convince me that I was not saved. I worked with some Apostolics and we may have not agreed on everythng but They did not try to tell me that I was not saved. The scriptures such as Ephesians 3: 18,19 and Romans 10:10 are in their vocabulary as well as mine.
I am only speaking from personal experience.

 

It is not mind reading MEE. It is all according to Oneness theology, of which cult you are a part of. Oneness people teach that baptism is essential to salvation. You believe the same thing, correct? This is not mind reading. You have posted the same before; it is what your cult believes. If baptism is essential to salvation, then salvation is by works. For baptism is a work
DHK [/QB][/QUOTE]

OK DHK, first let me say something. I don't belong to a cult! You, as a moderator, should know better and the BB board should remove you as such, if this continues.

Now, I don't consider water baptism as a work. It is a 'commandment' from the Lord Himself.
Matt. 28:19-20)
19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

Acts 2:38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ....... (another command?)

Acts 10:47-48)
47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized,....?
48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

You may teach that water baptism in not of any value toward salvation, but I think the Lord meant otherwise!

Anything that God has been established and ordained is important. What you believe is up to you. As far as I'm concerned, it is part of salvation.

Without the blood and faith, it means nothing.

Music4Him, that should answer your question also.

MEE

 

Thank you MEE~

 

That is right, MEE, it is a commandment. It is a commandment that Christ meant for us to obey after salvation. When a person is saved the first step of obedience that a born again Christian should take is to be baptized. But baptism in and of itself has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. It is done entirely apart from salvation.
You consider baptism essential to salvation. I used to do all my work on Microsoft Word, and have kept many of those files. Would you like me to go back and find a quote from you saying that it is essential to salvation.
Baptism is a work. It is commanded by Christ. Then we do it. It is done by man, received by man. God doesn't perfom baptism does he? Salvation is all of the grace of God. Oneness theology takes away from the grace of God because they believe that baptism plays a part in God's work of salvation.
DHK

 

That is right, MEE, it is a commandment. It is a commandment that Christ meant for us to obey after salvation. When a person is saved the first step of obedience that a born again Christian should take is to be baptized. But baptism in and of itself has absolutely nothing to do with salvation. It is done entirely apart from salvation.
You consider baptism essential to salvation. I used to do all my work on Microsoft Word, and have kept many of those files. Would you like me to go back and find a quote from you saying that it is essential to salvation.
Baptism is a work. It is commanded by Christ. Then we do it. It is done by man, received by man. God doesn't perfom baptism does he? Salvation is all of the grace of God. Oneness theology takes away from the grace of God because they believe that baptism plays a part in God's work of salvation.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Why go to all the trouble to look at your files? Just look at my last post and read it real s-l-o-o-o-w-l-y and save yourself some time!

It is not a work!...only to the ones that have been taught your way. If you believe water baptism doesn't have anything to do with salvation, then believe it.....the choice is yours!

DHK, you remind me of the Pharisees in Luke 7:30)..."The Pharisees and lawyers rejeted the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized."

When will people learn?

MEE

 

MEE, I do wonder when you will learn???
The Bible indicates that baptism is a work. I already know what you believe. Yes I can read your post, and I can understand your post when you say that baptism is not a work. But that is not what the Bible teaches. It is a work--something that man does. Here is what the Bible teaches. It is taken from Ephesians--one of Paul's epistles. We know that you detest the epistles of Paul, and would rather confine yourself to the Book of Acts, but the Holy Spirit uses more than just one book of the Bible:

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--"not of works" means not of baptism.
DHK

 

I agree 100%...just not the way you interpret it. Salvation does come by faith in the death, burial, & resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Without that we can do nothing!

BTW, do you know where one goes for lying? Read real close! I don't 'DETEST' the epistles of Paul, I don't confine myself to the book of Acts, and I know that the Holy Spirit uses more than just one book of the Bible. So therefore; don't lie on me. OK?

MEE

 

You've taken your analogy too far. Jesus was not teaching his disciples biology. In other words physical birth did not require eating; neither does the new birth. Both the infant and the new believer are born of the mother and the Father in Heaven respectively. Food is not necessary to be born, only to grow after one is born. First milk is necessary for a new believer (starting with baptism), then meat, for a more mature believer.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]You see there is the basic difference in our outlooks. You equate salvation with birth, I equate it with life. To me, limiting salvation to a momentary experience is simply fire insurance. I see it as so much more. Jesus said He came that we might have LIFE and have it abundantly.

Now I don't mean for this to be an argument, I just think that you need to understand that others' view points may differ from yours and that different is not necessarily wrong.

I tend to irritate both sides of the 'baptism is/isn't a requirement for salvation' argument. I don't mean to, but to me the argument is silly. Both sides participate in baptism, both agree that God has commanded it. Doesn't that settle the question? Shouldn't our attitude be, "God said it, I will do it, end of discussion"?

 

How do you reach such a conclusion? Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians.

 

How do you reach such a conclusion? Paul doesn't discuss baptism in Ephesians. </font>[/QUOTE]That is entirely the point. Baptism is not required for salvation, and never was.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." (not baptized)
"Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (not whosoever shall be baptized)

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--(Whosoever believes; not is baptized)

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
--(believeth; not baptizeth)

Salvation is by the grace of God, and through faith in that grace--the grace that Christ suffered and died and shed his blood for our sins on the cross of Calvary. It was all the grace of our Lord and Saviour. We accept it by faith, not by baptism.
DHK

 

DHK:That is entirely the point. Baptism is not required for salvation

Tam: Do you baptise people at your church&gt; And if so, why?

Peace,

Tam

 

Tam, even I can answer that:

Baptism is the outward sign of an inward change. We baptise to proclaim to the world that THIS person has decided to claim the gift that Jesus holds out to us, freely.

Everything that we do beyond salvation(including baptism) we do out of love and gratefulness to the Father and the Son. Jesus said, "He who loves me will keep my commandments" (John 14:21). Not he who wishes to keep his salvation will keep my commandments.

 

..........Ok if baptism is not required for salvation why do so many fuss over imersion vs. sprinkling, and the ages to be baptized. At one time a church had me to believe that you couldn't get to heaven without it (baptizim that is...not Ameican Express...although thats another subject). Now all this with MEE... is it really the right thing to do? I do not question her salvation, just that doctine part that I asked her and she politly answered me. BTW, through the Baptist churches that I attended, I distintly remember emphasis being put on baptism when there was someone who accepted the Lord as Savior. I remember hearing it was a part of it, and that it was also out of obediance (true on that point), because of the verse that MEE had posted about baptizing them that believe. Hummmmmmmm

Now let me see if I have this right? (BTW, If I haven't DHK can copy and paste this to his Microsoft Word and quote me later on it.)

Salvation is by grace (God's unmerited favor on you). Through confessing Jesus as your personal Savior.

Baptisim is through the obeidiance of the commandment to baptize

The gifts of the Spirit are the benifits (you didn't acually think I'd leave out the benifits did you? but thats another thread )

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BTW, Does anyone remember if there was ever a "3 Steps to Salvation" tract? That went something like....
To take the 3 steps to salvation you must....
1) Realize you are a sinner in need of a savior
2) Pray and ask Jesus to be your Savior and
repent of your sins
3) Confess with your mouth publicly

(BTW, I didn't put in the scripture referances to cut down on the size of the post)

Then it goes on to say the other things after you accept Jesus as Lord of your life, like get a bible and read it, get into a bible based church and everything about getting baptized. This (3Steps) is something I remember vaguely off the top of my head. Is there something like this? If not there ought to be! It would surly/hopfully cut out alot of doctrinal confusion. Ya' think?

Music4Him

 

Manageriekeeper said:Tam, even I can answer that:

Baptism is the outward sign of an inward change. We baptise to proclaim to the world that THIS person has decided to claim the gift that Jesus holds out to us, freely.

Everything that we do beyond salvation(including baptism) we do out of love and gratefulness to the Father and the Son. Jesus said, "He who loves me will keep my commandments" (John 14:21). Not he who wishes to keep his salvation will keep my commandments.

Tam says:

Well thank you, I believe the same thing.Baptism is not needed for salvation.

By the way, I didn't know your name was DHK!!!



Peace,

Tam

 

Oops, sorry if I intruded on a direct question to DHK. I saw your post as a general response and question to DHK's post.

 

I basically agree with you folk. I believe we agree on the essentials of salvation. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. Salvation is really very simple.
But the one person here who disagrees is MEE. If MEE will answer honestly without avoiding the question:
"Is baptism essential for one's salvation?" I believe that her religion will force her to say yes.

However we believe, as most of you have expressed, that baptism is important, but it is an act of obedience after salvatioon, not a part of salvation.
DHK