Religion of ruin?

EricB:
The historic church wouldn't agree with your quasi-gnostic conclusions. Plus your view of the Incarnation sounds Nestorian (to say the least!). Christ has indeed ascended to Heaven (He didn't leave His body behind), but He is still fully human and fully divine--when one worships Christ, one worships the Incarnate Christ. He is one Person, not two. In Christ the fullness of Deity dwells. He is the express image of God. The OT was indeed the shadow; the Incarnational Christian faith is the reality (not the quasi-gnostic/Manichaean faith which you seem to profess). We live by the Spirit today, but we ourselves are not disembodied spirits nor are we seeking to become so. The Church, Christ's body here on earth, is likewise a visible-spiritual body, testifying to the truth of the Incarnation.

(BTW--Christian paintings (including images of Christ) have been dated from way back well before Nicaea. Not only that, but synagogues have been dated back to the same period which have also been painted with images of Biblical scenes and figures.)

I'll end my participation in this discussion with the words of John of Damascus on this topic:
http://www.stmaryofegypt.org/library/st_john_damascene/icons/icons1.html

 

From Young's Literal:

Re 22:8
And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
Re 22:9
and he saith to me, `See--not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Seems to me that "bowing" before anything but God is prohibited. This angel makes that clear. I would suppose he knew what he was talking about since he came from God to deliver the message to John.

To excuse it and say that folks bow before kings is also in error since men are not to bow before men. Giving "honor" doesn't cut it. Bowing is an act of worship. God says don't bow before anything but Him.

Why is it then that RCC people bow before the feet of the pope when it is prohibited to bow before anything but God?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

This whole topic makes me think of the ARK!

(Not totally off-topic, but a "left handed view, if you will!)

I've come to the conclusion that the ark will not be found prior to the rapture simply because so many people would tend to "worship" any physical part of the ark as HOLY, regardless of their true relation with God.

Once we're gone, maybe, but not sure!

 

Re 22:8
And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to bow before the feet of the messenger who is shewing me these things;
Re 22:9
and he saith to me, `See--not; for fellow-servant of thee am I, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; before God bow.'

Seems to me - you are right.

In Christ,

Bob

 

If the pope was a truly humble saved servant of God would all the respect,honor,and attention he receives be profitable for him or his flock?James 2:1-4 My brethren,have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ,the Lord of glory,with respect of persons.For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring,in goodly apparel,and come also a poor man in vile raiment;And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing,and you say unto him,sit thou here in a good place;and say to the poor,Stand thou there,or sit here under my footstool:Are ye not then partial in yourselves,and are become judges of evil thoughts?I think Eric B has a good point,we all need to watch out for the idols we carve out in our minds, pastors,sporting teams,self just to name afew.

 

Thankful that Bob is in communion with the Islamic religion in condeming icons etc.


My little home altar has beautiful imagery of the Madonna and Child; and Our Lord my saviour as an adult, despite being a Catholic this images help in my focus when praying as I am flesh and blood and easily distracted.

My rosary beads are a counting tool in my prayer life.

As a catholic I defend my right to have such imagery and tobe easily identified as making my Saviour a focal point in all my daily concerns.

Yes, there is holy water to remind me of God entering and departing my humble abode.

In all things I want the Trinity to be my centre of my life always.

 

Briony;
You may defend your "right" to have anything your heart desires.

But you will not please God with it.

See thou do it not.

I noticed who you listed FIRST in describing your "little home altar."

Another interesting thing about your short (but very revealing) post is that you mentioned the Trinity. But the only three you listed of that Trinity are "Madonna" (first) Jesus (second) and God (third). Very revealing indeed.

I think you ought to re-evaluate whom you are bowing down to.

Forget "focus". Follow John's example. Bow only to God.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

We still are not even worshipping these early paintings (I know I've seen one printed in a magazine, from about the 4th century--it looked like a crude fingerpainting) but even that is still centuries removed from the actual Christ. (Unless you are now going to start suggesting an "oral visual tradition" passed down!) So we are not worshipping the true Christ.
You keep throwing out this charge of gnosticism and Nestorianism, but I acknowledge an incarnational reality. I still don't see where this gives us the license now to worship things; including things not even claimed to represent Christ (saints, Mary, etc), or to draw pictures off the top of our heads and say it is Christ.

Funny you speak of NEstorianism; when you quote this writing that says:

Even though he denies that it is a fourth person; still, he realizes that what he is suggesting can easily be seen that way. That is more like what the Nestorians did. But no; it is apart of the Second PErson; not any new entity that is almost separate from the three. Actually; it is the Nestorians who spoke of a "union"; thus creating a new type of "adoptionism" (the unitarian theology of Paul of Samosata and today's Christadelphians and Way Int.). The only real difference from unitarianism is that they recognized a personhood of the Word.
But my saying the flesh is not divine is not making it a separate entity. Remember; a denial that Christ truly came int he flesh is the "doctrine of antichrist", and the true doctrine of the gnostics! Calling it "divine" and saying it had become anything but human flesh is a slick way of doing just that. It could die; and God's divinity was immortal. Gopd could not die; so what we had was humanity and divinity in one person; not a divinity that came in some special divine flesh, or changed the flesh to divine. If thatw as true; He would not be able to die.

Where does he get this from? Where does scripture ever tell us to worship things we have drawn? If you have the incarnate Christ standing before you, you can worship Him; but none of us do today. He has gone back up to HEaven. But where does it say we can substitute something our habds have made; and we don't even know what He looked like?

Once again; God may have allowed all of that in the OT (And "Angels of the Lord" often represented His actual presence, anyway). But in Revelation; when John twice worships the angel; he is told "See you do it not: for I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the
prophets, and of them which keep the sayings (o. logos) of this book: worship God". (19:10, 22:9) Remember, "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30). There is no license here to go back to worshipping things, and to do so is to "return to the weak and beggarly elements, unto which all of you desire again to be in bondage" (Gal. 4:9)

And here is a colossal mistake religionists have made for centuries (and in Genesis 1:26 as well). This is not talking about physical appearance Jesus does not look like God physically; for God is not physical. Christ's being in the image of God is defined by Him by "the works that I do" (John 14), and of course Hi ssinless perfection. So there is still no license to worship created things here.

The Cheribim were not themselves worshipped; and they were not living things worshipping other things. They were just representations of Heavenly realities, and this has nothing to do with what we worship; especially today in the NT where we look directly to the spiritual realities. Once again, we today are the spiritual Temple; but we can't see an actual "temple". There needs to be no visible representation of a temple. The spiritual reality is sufficient. And since the ark was one of the things in the temple, what just-want-peace said is truly fitting: "the ark will not be found prior to the rapture simply because so many people would tend to 'worship' any physical part of the ark as HOLY, regardless of their true relation with God".

The Israelistes actually saw a visible sign of God on the mountaintop. Being afraid of this; they did exactly what this person is suggesting. They fashioned a goldan calf, not as some "other god"; but to represent the true God they saw Moses with. But did God accept that? Of course not!

 

Oh, c'mon... B-G isn't saying that Mary is a member of the Holy Trinity...

 

They also don't like the eating pork thing. I guess that makes all the Orthodox Jews "Islamic" by your rule.

How "instructive".

You know -- I think I read something about that.

WORSHIP at Mary’s Altars

How "instructive".

 

I think I can just hear those hymns sung before her throne at her altars -- as I read your post Brionny.

And I am thinking that Pope Pius XII could not be in more agreement with you.

 

I don't believe anyone is giving license to worship things. I just don't thing there is anything wrong with showing respect to those things which represent Christ and those whom He has made holy.

(And, yes, you "acknowledge an incarnational reality", but one wonders given the implications of the Incarnation whether you grasp this consistently.)

It's not worshipping "things". It's worshipping Christ by honoring (treating with respect) those things which represent Christ, whether it's the cross, the gospel book, or His icon. As John of Damascus wrote, it's not worshipping matter, but it's worshipping the God who became matter for our sake. Honoring those visible representations of Christ (He became visible, so he could thereby be depicted) testifies to the truth of the incarnation.

Would you spit on a picture of Christ or the cross or the Bible? Why not, since they are just representations and not the things itself. However, it's because of what (or Who) these things represent that you wouldn't (I hope) spit on them. Spitting on them would indicate a disrespect for Who they represent. Conversely, kissing an icon, a cross, or the Bible shows respect for Christ whom these things represent, not worshipping those things themselves.

First, no one is substituting something made by hands for the risen and ascended Christ. No one pretends that Christ and the icon is the exact same, just as no pious Jew, when he kissed the Torah book, thought the Torah was exactly equivalent to God. The Jew had no notion that he was substituting something written by the hands of man on a material object for God; rather he was kissing the Torah because what it represented--God's word. And the icon of Christ represents the Eternal Word of God who became man for our sake.

Second, who's to say there was not a oral tradition of His general physical appearance that was depicted, at first crudely on cave walls and paintings in house churches, then on painted icons when the perscecutions ceased? (This is not to say that all latter artistic representations of Christ--say as a blonde-haired blue eyed European--are accurate). Icons are somewhat stylized since they represent sanctified and transfigured humanity, so an exact photographic representation is not needed to depict Christ or His saints. The point is, God became Man for our salvation and this Man can be depicted artistically. Since the icon represents Christ, one can honor Christ by honoring the icon.

Again, one is no more worshipping matter by kissing an icon than a pious Jew would be worshipping a material scroll by kissing the Torah book.

Yet it was the worship of the angel for which John was rebuked. It was an angel, not the Angel of the Lord.

But no one is worshipping "things". They are honoring those whom the icons represent. (The "beggarly elements" refers to the old covenant practices that the Judaizers were attempting to impose on the NT gentile Christians.)

And here is a colossal mistake religionists have made for centuries (and in Genesis 1:26 as well). This is not talking about physical appearance Jesus does not look like God physically; for God is not physical. Christ's being in the image of God is defined by Him by "the works that I do" (John 14), and of course Hi ssinless perfection. So there is still no license to worship created things here.</font>[/QUOTE]Of course there is no license to worship created things, be they gospel books, icons, crosses, etc. But one certainly can treat with respect those things which represent Christ, the God-Man whom we do worship. The Son is indeed (from eternity) the image of Father in the ways described above and the Son (in time) became Man, and is still God-Man.

...as are icons.

Spiritual realities such as in the Incarnation, Transfiguration, Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension, which while spiritual all had a real physical aspect to them. The spiritual reality is that because of Christ becoming physical, we can in Him hope for the resurrection from the dead--spiritually and physically--and the redemption/transfiguration of creation--spiritually and physcically.

The physical gestures of kissing icons expresses our faith in and reverence for spiritual reality. Or else, if the physical is totally unimportant, why do folks bow in prayer or stand when the Scripture is read? (Or are these physical actions also "beggarly"? And why use beggarly bread or wine or water at allin communion or baptism since it's only the "spiritual" that counts?)

But we are also visible. Or else why have a visible gathering to worship at all? One can contemplate the "spiritual" reality while fishing.
However, the true spiritual reality, is that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, died a physical death for our sins, and rose from the grave in a physical body and ascended with that body up into heaven. We, too, one day will have resurrected physical bodies as Christ does. We're not ultimately going to be disembodied spirits.

No one is suggesting that the mere veneration of holy representations is sufficient (or even the main thing!) regarding one's relationship with God. However, in the context of an obedient, prayerful life, such respect for these items is not idolatry, but a demonstration of the incarnational and eschatological aspects of our faith in Christ.

The Israelistes actually saw a visible sign of God on the mountaintop. Being afraid of this; they did exactly what this person is suggesting. They fashioned a goldan calf, not as some "other god"; but to represent the true God they saw Moses with. But did God accept that? Of course not!</font>[/QUOTE]Actually God says in Deuteronomy 4:15-18 says that: "Take careful heed of yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of fire, lest you act corruptly and make yourselves the carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the air, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground or the likeness of any fish in the water beneath the earth." (So of course God didn't accept being depicted as a golden calf!). However, when Christ came, things were different. Jesus who was in the very form of God came in the likeness of man (Phil 2:5-7) and His glory was beheld (John 1:14). Until Christ came no one had seen the Father at anytime, but Christ has declared Him (John 1:18), and Jesus Himself said to the disciples, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Depicting Christ on an icon is a testament to this truth. And showing respect to this icon, expresses our gratitude to God for this historical truth and our eschological hope in our ultimate salvation, both body and spirit.

 

Also from Scripture:
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it Holy" (Ex 20:8)

Just curious, what day of the week do you worship on? How do you spend your Saturdays?

He didn't say keep the Sabbath only til the Messiah came either. Are you a "Sabbath-keeping" baptist?

But Catholics believe she is a member of their family in heaven.

Context is everything, Deborah. The commandment was meant to forbid the worship of idols, false gods. God had yet to become Incarnate in Christ so He could not yet be depicted artistically. When God became man in Christ, a lot of things changed. Christ, the express image of God, became visible and could thus be depicted artistically. The reverence paid to His Icon thus passes to Him. Likewise, the saints in heaven, including the Theotokos, who have been perfected in Christ are honored with the respect (to a lesser degree) paid to their icons. This is not an excuse, but is the glorious implication of the Incarnation, Crucifixion, and Resurrection of Christ who is our salvation, Who rescues us from the "letter of the law" since the letter kills but the Spirit gives life. We are to serve in the newness of the Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6). That's why I wouldn't be too quick to lump venerating the icons of Christ and His saints with the bowing down before the graven images of false gods simply in your zeal to keep "the letter". </font>[/QUOTE]Doubting Thomas,
You don't sound like a doubting Thomas, you are so arrogantly false, so nauseously pious. If ever anything could confirm me in my distrust of Roman Catholics for being Christians, this post of yours did it!
GE

 

I thought it was mentioned here that the word "worship" actually means "bow". Note in the OT; it was just the act of "bowing the knee" to Baal that had people condemned as idolaters; as in the NT period, bowing the knee or offering a little incense to Caesar. So we see here that all John did with the angel was fall down prostrate. If this was disallowed for a live angel; why would it be allowed for dead saints, or inanimate pictures?

Because I don't take it as a licence to bow to things? I don't see how a consistent grasping of the Incarnation necessitates this.

Refraining from spitting (deliberate, active disrespect) is a far cry from bowing or kissing them (active veneration). I wouldn't go into a Hindu temple and spit on the statues there either (since I do not believe actively destroying others' religion is something God has committed to us now); but I certainly do not respect them, and thus won't actively respect them by bowing or kissing.
We respect Christ and the saints of the Bible by obeying their Gospel. Nobody told us to make representations of them in the first place, to be in a position to "respect" or "disrespect" them.

But then if the real thing we are worshipping is invisible; then worship is to be "in spirit and in truth" (John 6:24); as Christ told the woman at the well who was hung up in a debate over physical places of worship (v.20, 21). Once again; God gave the carnal Jews physical forms; but Christ clearly shows that that was temporary, and to be superseded by spiritual worship (v.23).
(and is kissing the Torah scroll something God commanded? I went to a Synagogue service once; and thought that all the reverence they gave to the scroll (and then hearing the joy or horror over a scroll surviving or perishing in a fire, theft or other destruction/desecration of synagogues); compromised the commandment! But then they have their "oral tradition" as well! Only theirs says that Jesus was false! Theives and physical disasters cannot destroy the Word of God; (rather the former all the more stand judged by it!) so destroying a written copy of it should nto bring such horror as if God actually died, or salvation was revoked)

And those "Old Covenant practices" includes all of these very physical forms you keep citing! All of those "days" and "times" and things included physical items and activities in the synagogues, or elsewhere.

This is speculation. The oldest picture I have seen is a crude depiction that you cannot even really make out. It could just as well be anybody, so you are saying that because they say that it's Christ; then it is. Well, we could do that with our big toe.

That's right! It's not needed at all. Just worship Him in spirit! (One one hand, you try to argue that the actual appearance of Christ may have passed dow; now you're admiting that it doesn't have to be an actual picture of Him at all. Once again; we could just as well substitute our big toe.

Once again; where do you get this from? By what authority do you make this pronouncement; other than your rationale being given here?

 

But they did not bow to or kiss these items.

So He still had a physical (or tangible) aspect to Him; and we will still have a tangible aspect. This says nothing about bowing to things that we say represent Him or those gone before us. Once we are there with Him; THEN we will have something visible to direct worship to. But now; our perception of God is spititual; by faith; and physical items have nothing to do with this.

I myself don;t agree with that. On a cozy Sunday morning; when I go trying to concentrate on the Word of God or spiritual songs; I hate doing jumping jacks. It distracts me, and makes it hard to concentrate. I understand why they do it; but it is really not necessary, and not commanded. Anyone can do that, and not even respect the Word of God by living by it, or rightly dividing it. That's another way where these physical forms distract from the spiritual reality.

These are visible proclamations of spiritual realities to the world. (Just like preaching is an auditory representation). And they have apparently been put in perspective by much of the Church where baptism often occurs long after a person receives Christ; and communion is done sporadically in many Churches, and using tiny shots and crumbs or wafers that can hardly be called a meal. But you cannot say the people are not in Christ. (And once again the theory that I mentioned elsewhere that "communion" was any meal in a Christian fellowship would also be a good explanation of this).

Because we need each other. We are social creatures, and need other people; so as Christians, we need our borthers and sisters in Christ. And Christ says wherever two or three are gathered in His name; He is [spiritually!] there! And all our prayers together are amplified. This is the spiritual meaning of the Body we are Baprized into, and which Christ is present at communion. Yes; WE are the visible representatives of Christ; not the inanimate objects people keep making the focus and attributing spiritual power in themselves.

But as I have just shown; those physical objects; by [our] nature always will obscure a relationship with God. That is what happens in so many of those Churches where people learn to go through all the motions of respecting THINGS, yet would laugh or spit at you if you told them to really follow God. "Impossible". they say. Then Church leadership wonders why their flock is so wayward (pope's visits, Mother Angelica, etc), and try to blame America, rationalism, or whatever they see as eroding their authority.

"Form" there is "shape" or "embodiment". (i.e a phantom) They did see light and lightning and clouds. They used a calf because they were terrified; but still, God is not saying that they were only wrong in worshipping the calf because it was the wrong shape. Or that "to Whom will you liken me" (Is. 40) was only until the Incarnation. (This was actually part of a Messianic prophecy! And the context is physical represenations (idols); not spiritual works/character!)

And Christ, once again was speaking of works/character; not a physical form. Yes, we are to recreate those works and character-- in our lives. Not by fashioning physical scuptures and bowing to them!. To do that is once again; to miss the point of the Gospel entirely!

 

Greetings,

It is a sin to worship anything or anyone other than God himself. This is Official Catholic Teaching!! Nobody worships statues. I have NEVER prayed to a statue. That would be the equivilent of me complaining that you are worshipping your bible because you are kneeling with it in front of you to pray. You don't worship your bible, and catholics do not worship statues.

peace

 

Now we are getting somewhere!

You don't pray TO the statues because of course that would be worshipping the STATUES.

I am glad we can agree on that.

So when you pray AT Mary's altar or TO a statue of Mary in a way that is "Really" just praying TO Mary -- who do you worship in that act of devotion - the statue or the one the statue represents.

BTS - in paganism the principle is the same. They do not pray TO the statue but TO the one the statue represents.

Ancestor worship seems to work the same everywhere you go.