Explain these verses....

Catholic Convert,

I could care less about defending either Protestant position or the Catholic view of justification. I only want to surface the truth. You said, ' . . . NOT BY FAITH ALONE by Robert Sungenis and read it slowly and carefully. It is well over 700 pages and absolutely DESTROYS the Protestant position. Sungenis was a Latin rite . . . '

Justification by faith is a Pauline view of Christianity coming from the Lord Himself. The Catholic system hates our peace with God coming only by our faith in Jesus, because this breaks down your whole system of holding people over Purgatory and a 'work your way to Heaven theology.

The Book of James was written as the half-brother of Jesus, not to destroy justification by faith but merely to show us that if we have a lively faith in Christ we will produce good works. That is all James is saying. James writing down the Word of God is not saying that 'good works' will get us to Heaven because then James writings would contridict Ephesians 2:9, where the Lord shouts with plainness of speech, that we are saved by our faith through no scheme of ourselves, and not of human works lest we should boast.

The Book of James and the Pauline epistles turn Catholicism into a religon of human effort. You know it is true and I for sure understand your system of human effort.

 

I would have been clear if I had said, Catholicism has tried to turn the Book of James and the Pauline epistles into a theology of human performance by doing good. That is why you fall back on the Book of James because those who are novices in faith you might be able to subvert into your heresy. You well understand Catholicisms genius of turning Christianity into a system of human effort.

 

Catholic Convert,

You said, 'But we are NOT perfect like He is.... And that is why He gave us the Sacraments!

The Bible teaches Christians that the way to forgiveness is by confession of our sins to the Lord; and He says, via John 'If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' This is the Johannine way of approaching God and of becoming more like our Master, Jesus Christ. When we ask the Lord to forgive us of our sin it makes us dependent on Him and therefore, it keeps us from trying to do something to to keep our salvation by doing a good work.

Your above statement strongly hints at the idea that forgiveness comes by way of receiving the sacrament. After meeting with the priest one must receive a host and then you are good until the next violation of His will. Your religon makes you respond to the sacrament as a human effort in order to receive the absolution of sins.

I believe I am right that you do not receive the element of His blood, so in fact, by your default your sins would not be cleansed because you have only received the host. I John 1:7 says, 'The blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin.'

 

Actually, Brother Ed said, "that is why He gave us the Sacraments!" You are both right. God gives us Jesus in Word and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.

 

As an priest in the Anglican communion, I agree ENTIRELY with the above post. I also would recommend Sungenis' book. Very-well written and documented. As pointed out before, the original Bible verse quoted has St Paul telling us that one cannot 'obligate' God to do anything.

But reading the entire breadth of Scripture, I can only conclude that Salvation is by 'grace alone'. It begins at baptism, but must be worked-through (see James 2). We can lose our salvation. But salvation, properly understood, is a process whereby we become ready to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Thank God that this 'being ready' does not depend on us alone! But our works (always dependent on the Grace of God)are utterly necessary, for they bring about the much-needed change from the 'old man' to the 'new', making us holy and ready to meet our God. The kind of 'belief' that many Protestants adhere to is simply (to borrow a phrase from Bonhoeffer) 'cheap grace'. I reject it.

 

Ron, you used Romans 11:22-23 for a proof of losing salvation. You need to read in context with more of the verses in that area.
KJV
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

What we have here is a description showing that God controls the method by which we are saved. Verse 20 is saying that unbelieving Jews are not children of God anymore, because of their unbelief. Unbelievers are unsaved. Those with “faith” are saved. So far we agree, I think. What is verse 22 really saying then. Do we lose our being “saved” on the basis of where our goodness is at?. No, it does not say that at all. Read it again carefully. God is speaking to a “peoples” here, not individual people. It is a simple message. Unbelieving Jews will never be children of God, though they are His people. Gentiles can be God’s children by faith, and the generations ahead can be God’s children if the “peoples” (group, nation, etc…) continue in his goodness, God’s goodness that is, not any persons or people. God’s goodness is of course that by believing in his Son we are grafted in as His children.

There you have it Ron, this was the first of the verses you used and it does not say what you said. My guess is the others you used will fail the test as well, when read in context. I have noticed lately that most Catholics, as a rule, post only one or two verses at a time. This is a bad practice, as illustrated by my point above.

Ron, Hope you are well. Enjoy the fall time in MI. I love the fall and pumpkin farms and the cool but not cold weather. Take care my friend,

Your brother in Christ,
Brian

 

Hi, Brian. Funny you would comment about posting one or two verses at a time. That's how this very thread was started and, frankly, is pretty normal for this forum.

The alternative is a lengthy list of verses and commentary, which don't get read or are not addressed any way. That seems to be what happened with the rest of the Scripture that I posted since you "guess that they will fail the test as well."

I'm not being critical, just an observation.

As to Catholics on the board only posting a verse or two, my observation of our counterparts here would be that most make their interpretation of Scripture outside of the historical beliefs of Christianity. By that I mean, most of the non-Catholic interpretations were either unheard of, not common, or rejected by historical Christianity prior to the Reformation.

OSAS being a prime example.

Today is the first cool day that we have had in some time. It was a great summer!

As a sailor, Fall is my least favorite season. Next weekend I have to head back "Up North" to take the boat out of the water for the winter.

Your friend and brother,
Ron

[ September 24, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

You name the time and place. Sounds great!! I can carry harmony over a wide range.

I understand. May I just say that when I am at Liturgy and preparing to recieve the Blessed Sacrament, I am not looking at the bread or wine, but my "eyes", as it were, are looking beyond them to the One Who promised to be present in those elements.

Likewise, when I go to confession, I close my eyes and do not "see" Fr. Mike, but the One Who is there in Fr. Mike. (I think the Latin phrase is "in persona Christi").

In other words, yes, we agree. God gave us the BEST -- Jesus His only begotten Son -- for our comfort and forgiveness of our many sins.

So the question I would ask you is this: is there any reason Jesus cannot be present in the Sacraments? Is this too hard for Him?

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

No. Now I ask you: is there any reason Jesus has to be present in Sacraments? Is it too hard for Him to work in other ways?

In Christ,
Neal

P.S. I hope you are doing well Brother Ed.

 

"For as the lips of Christ say and speak, so it is, as He can never lie or deceive." (Luther's Large Catechism)

"26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. " (Mat 26:26-28)

 

9] The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
[10] But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
[11] Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
[12] But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
[13] And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
[14] Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
[15] Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
[16] But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
[17] These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
[18] For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
[19] While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Hi Ron, I included a bunch of the earlier verses to gain proper context on the second of the verse sets that you presented. This is an interesting run of verses and does not show loss of salvation. The “they” here were clearly never believers as evidenced by the earlier verses. Verse after verse of the ‘they” not being righteous and in fact being described in strong language. This is certainly not the way you would think of your lost brothers in Christ, there is no pity here as the “they” are evil and deceivers of many. No magic happens to change everything in verse 20. These people see the truth and have knowledge of the truth. The dirtiness is cleared before them and they see the way to go. The “they”, however, choose not to move forward to a new life but stay in the deceit of their current beliefs. Verse 21 says that they had “known” the way of righteousness but turned from it. They were at the brink of being saved but were not saved. The concept in vs. 20-22 is that it is worse in the end to have seen the way out of a horrible thing then never to have seen the way out, if of course you don’t get out. There are a million examples of this. How about a person dying of thirst who is so weak he can’t move the 20 more yards to the lake he is near. He sees the water and can’t get to it. I think you get the point. When the day is over, those at the brink of trusting Christ but didn’t will weep all the more.

I will address the other scriptures in the days ahead. Also, I am going to try to give the meaning of the verses without looking at any commentaries. So far I am 2 for 2. Hope you are well and sorry that you have to stop sailing for a while. Have a good fall and winter anyway.

In our Lord,
Brian

 

Romans 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34  Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35  Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36  As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37  Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38  For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39  Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

How can they once 'escape pollution', and then become 'entangled therein'? Clearly, this and many other Scriptures, refutes OSAS.

 

Brian, while I appreciate your sincerity in what you have posted here, as well as all the time and thought that I am sure that you have given it, it doesn't make a great impression on me.

What I see is a lengthy explanation as to why the words don't mean what they are clearly saying. If "after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" isn't describing a "saved" person, then I don't know what would.

But the real problem that I have here, Brian, is that so many interpretations accepted by non-Catholics, like OSAS, are quite simply contrary to historical Christian belief.

No amount of debate or explanation is going to ever convince me that a belief that is virtually unheard of prior to the Reformation is correct and that the Early Fathers of the Church, who learned at the feet of the Apostles, got it all wrong.

I hope that you can see that I am not critical of you, but I really would not agree that you are 2 for 2 at this point.

Ron

 

Hi Ron and Jude, I know that it is easy to want to make knowledge of the same as having but it is not. Just because I know where the door of my house is I may not use it if the house is on fire. I may choose to stay in the burning house even when the door is open and the smoke (pollutions) clear. You see, until I have Jesus living in me and holding me the knowledge there of will do me no good. I challange you both to read all the verses I used for proper context. If verses 20-22 were all there were, you would still not convince me, but it would be harder for me to explain. With the context of the earlier verses the meaning is crystal clear. (for those who have eyes to see )

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

 

Matt. 10.22 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Matt. 24.13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Mark 13.13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
Rev. 2.26 To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations —

 

But it doesn't just say "having knowledge", it says "after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge".

What does it mean to "escape the pollutions of the world" it it does not mean to be saved?

BTW, I use the word "saved" because it is your frame of reference. I believe that we are saved at the end of the race, not at any singular point in our earthly life. That's a whole other discussion though.

 

Hey Guys, Verse 20 is one of a group of verse. Verse 21 qualifies verse 20. It says "known" and "knowledge" and that is what it means.

Jude, those verses show the Characteristic of endurance, which is one of the many Christian characteristics. Maybe include some context for your verses to see the whole issue being taught.

Next..............


1 Corth. 14/15 39-4 (KJV)
[39] Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
[40] Let all things be done decently and in order.
[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ron, I think too often we look at scriptures as being spoken to us individually when they are intended for whole groups. 1 Corith. is a book intended primarily for the assembly gathering in Corinth. The book speaks to a whole gathering and the passages though they may have some individual meaning to us are meant for a group. Read the passages again above with that in mind. Look at 39, which says brethren, just so you see who is the target group. Now before you get too excited brethren here doesn’t mean all believers, just those in the assembly. No more then your or my pastor/priest calling the assembly on a Sunday morning brethren, when some in the pews are not saved. There is no salvation for a “vain” belief. If something is done in vain, it was done for nothing. This does not work in anyway with Jesus and the forgiveness of Sin. So, what is being said here is as follows.

Brian translation: Hey guys this gospel of Jesus is the real deal and many of you know that because you received it and our living now with Christ in you. Those of you who received are the saved here and your lives are the proof, others of you however don’t even remember what the gospel is exactly and what you are believing is simply not going to save you.

There you have it, and done without the help of a pastor or commentary.

Ron, I see it as 3 for 3. Do you rate me as 2-1 or 1-2. I assume you accepted my first translation since you did not challenge it.

Take care and hope all is well,

Brian

 

Next?

Back it up there, Brian.

You still need to explain how one can "escape the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ" and not be saved.

What does that phrase mean then?