What kind of sins does a Pope confess?

Hi Bill,

You're always a breath of fresh air, brother.

We recently had Scott Hahn down here in Pensacola (Gulf Breeze, FL) and I had the opportunity to hear him! You lucky guy! You get to get him as a professor in Stubenville!

Just had class with him today, in fact (Theological Foundations). He went overtime for 15 minutes today due to his enthusiasm. We discussed Banez, Suarez, Spinoza, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Molina, Aquinas, Augustine, Calvin, and about ten other dead men.

I posted a bit of today's class for you to listen to online. It's 700 kb and 6 minutes long in mp3 format.

He speaks of the difference between divisions of theology in Protestantism and Catholicism: how theology distinguishes in order to divide among Protestants and how theology distinguishes in order to unite among Catholics.

Click here:

http://www.boerne.com/temp/Hahn.mp3

How do you get your picture to show up in the column of the "handle/name"? I can see in in my profile, but I cannot get it to appear in the message.

You need to get a picture on the Internet somewhere that's less than 60 x 60 pixels. And then email the webmaster it's location on the internet (the URL), and the webmaster will set it up manually for ya bro.

God bless you!

Carson

[ February 03, 2003, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Sherrie,

"

 

Grant,

Peter was specifically restored. That is a tacit admission of his huilt. He repented and was resotred.

The popes who committed the sins I mentioned never did these things.

It is really quite simple Grant. You want to say that teh Pope is the bishop of Rome but you will not hold Popes to the biblical standard for a bishop's character.

Your protest about Peter is for you an excuse to ignore what Paul says. You do not address what Paul says.

The Bible is also quite clear about people who are justifed living righteous lives, a characteristic lacking in many Popes. The Bible also says that those who teach will be held to a higher standard.

You, it seems, would prefer to find reasons to hold them to a lower one.

BTW, I gather you are not interested in the Envision article. Its just as well. The rality is that all it shows is that Evangelicals are not as good whne it comes to producing atheists. It doesn't mean we don't prodice any. Kind of like being the cleanest pig in the pig pen IMO.

 

I am really interested on any statistics about people coming in vs. leaving the Catholic Church. In my home town, the Catholic Church is the fastest growing church anywhere around. It is amazing!! There are now more than 3,000 families in their parish and standing room only at any of their week-end masses.

I attended the Easter Vigil mass last year and the majority of the people coming into the church (and there were many to say the least) were converts from protestant churches. Quite a few from my own (that is why I was there) I might add.

 

Show me,

While the statistics would be interesting, I agree with others that the statistics of growth don't tell the whole story. The point I made that started all of this was that head to head on message boards, when a Protestant who knows his religion and a Cathollic who knows his religion go at it, the Protestant will be far more likely from what I have observed to become Catholic than the other way around. Many Catholics on the street are converted that do not know their faith and are caught alone by some Protestant who puts their slant on the Catholic doctrines. This has been proven to me many times. The only way they can pull us out of the Church is to find weak sheep and distort our doctrines.

Blessings.

 

Sherrie,


You seem to be avoiding me this evening. Could you throw me a bone and answer my last couple of posts. Also be sure and read the responses I did for you after lunch. The one I put alot of work in to and it will hopefully educate you as you asked me to do.

 

Thanks for the clarification Thessalonian:

BTW, are you familiar with Chick Tracts and their tactics?

 

I would bet my left leg that there is a demon running J. Chick Publications.

http://net2.netacc.net/~mafg/jtchick/jtc02.html

 

I have seen your questions answered. Which ones were missed?

That is not what you originally said. This is what you said: "Do you all ever think he messed around with any of those Nuns." Now, maybe I'm not the brightest bird in the cage, but "messed around with those nuns" is asking us if he had sexual relations with them. And do you realize how dumb this question is? No offense, but who are "those nuns?" Do you realize how many orders of sisters there are? Did you read an accusation about the pope molesting nuns? If not, why did you bring it up? To upset us? What was your motive?

I didn't trust Bill Clinton any farther than I can throw him. But I didn't leave the country when he was elected, and then RE-ELECTED. In the same way, I'm not going to leave the Church if my leader sins, considering I myself am a sinner.

Please quote him or don't say he said something. There is enough deceit going around here that we don't need any more.

God bless,

Grant

 

Does this mean if you truely believe in something your doing then it isn't a sin?

 

Coming from a catholic family in Chicago and most of my friends were catholic, I have to say one thing, I have never seen the viciousness and hate from a catholic as I do on here. I have never seen a catolic who was ready to jump anyone and everyone, who took offense at every slight thing, even people actually asking becasue they didn't know. You poeple do not represent your church very well when you go visiting at other christians homes do you(it is the BAPTIST board). I just never met catholic so ill mannered as to attack people outright.
Wheres that christian love?

 

Kate,

Where is your objection to the thread entitled "Catholics Deny Christ?"

Do you find nothing unChristian about starting a topic that asks if I think the Pope has in some way sexually abused nuns, something that is and continues to be unsubstantiated by the originator of the question?

You find it totally in God's charity to ask questions, then as soon as they are answered, move to a tangent and then attack beliefs that really have nothing to do with the original intent of the topic, and then say that the questions are not being answered?

I do not find these to be of God, and they upset me greatly. If I respond poorly, it is not because I cannot answer the questions or that my theology is unstable or that I dislike Baptists or any-nonCatholics, or even their own theology. Everyone has the freedom to believe what they wish to believe. What I DO have a problem with is baited questions, slanderous remarks, unsubstantiated and repeated claims, having to repeat myself to the same people because they didn't read my responses the first time, and having to reply to a topic like "Catholics Deny Christ" over and over again so that, at bare minimum, my faith is not daily slandered on this board.

Non-Catholics post these threads. Very few threads are started by Catholics, and even fewer of those (not all; we aren't perfect by any means) are with the intent of deceiving a Baptist or other non-Catholic poster).

Please keep this in mind as you formulate your thoughts.

God bless,

Grant

 

"I am not avoiding anyone. In fact I too was waiting on answers to my questions. As they were the reason I posted this thread."

I think I did answer some of your questoins. Apparently you didn't see the post so I will repost it below and I will like you to rebut my rebuttals with scripture and logic if you are capable of going beyond the arguements you have heard in Church or read in books. I have much doudt that you can at this point.

"I went back and re-read some of the post and I really do not see what it is you want from me. I am not taking anything I said back about the Nuns. I meant it. Why aren't you worried about this. There is just so much sexual abuse going on within the Catholic Church and nothing being done by the Pope, doesn't it ever make you wonder why?"

You are simply not being honest here. Tell me have you ever wondered what EVIL Paul was speaking of? Perhaps those lonely nights out on the evangelization trail????? The greater part of the point of your thread was that a Pope who confesses sin, cannot possibly speak infallibly. I think I shreaded this argument in the post that I will repost below.

"Come on surely you have your doubts. Sometimes you have to wonder about that Pope. He after all, is just a man. A man who makes mistakes. He is someone you trust to make all your decisions in your church, that reflect how you live your life seperate from the church."

I have said several times. My faith and the Cathoilc Church does not depend on a particular Pope not ever sinning. As far as what his sins are, that is not for me to sit and figure out. And he does not make all the decisions in the Church. Each Bishop is the head of his diocese and makes decisions for it. The Pope is the final arbitrer on issues of faith and morals, which he is infallible in when he makes ex-cathedra statements and in issues regarding governing of the Church and discipline. He does not make all the decisions so once again you are making statements about the Church in an expert manner that you have no clue about.

"Isn't it your Pope that said one time that you should concider him, just like the Jews in Old Testament concidered the Sadducces."

I have no idea. Perhaps you could substantiate this. But then why should I suspect that you would since you have not substantiated any of your accusations and inuendo about the man. You have just encouraged gossip and rummors. Your character as a Christian is falling fast in my view. This is really getting sad. Little scripture, little substance. Just maligning and bearing false witness. That's a commandment sherrie. Our 8th, your 9th I believe.

 

Sherrie,

Here are the posts I was most interested in you having a look at. Apparently you missed them.

Sherrie,

"Oh but I am not trying to. That is why I have asked you the question."

Oh but you are. You see the problem is you don't care what our answers are, you reject them out of hand.

"What could the pope who has this superior connection to God, possibly do that was a sin?

**** Hmmm. This is a big red herring for you Sherrie. I am going to ask you to really concentrate on what I am about to say. We have the New Testament scriptures. They are the word of God correct. You would say they are infallible, I would say they are inerrant. There is a differnce but we can get in to that later. But from your infallible perspective here is the problem. The Apostle Peter has two books in that Bible. Are they the infallible word of God? I think you would say yes. Problem is he was still a sinner as we see in Galatians where he caters somewhat to the Jews and Paul opposes him to his face. Are you willing to throw those two books out over this? I hope not.

But then you have a bigger problem. You see the Apostle Paul has more writings in the NT then any other of the sacred writers. Some of the Protesstant favorites (which I hold dear to my heart) Romans and Ephesians were written by him. There is a problem. If a man that is "in tune "with God such that he writes and speaks infallibly cannot sin such as you say, then what of this verse where Paul admits his sinfullness.

Romans 7:19
For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

He says he does EVIL. He sins Sherrie. Are we going to throw out his books.

Now you and I will both agree that there is no more scripture being written. But is infallible speach taught in the Bible. Jesus says to his disciples:

Luke 10:16
"The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me."

So apparently there was infallible speach going on also with these sinful men. To say that the only things that were written were infallible is a rejection of this verse. Now is this Charism possible today? I would say yes. You would say no. But your arguement against it, that the Pope is a sinner and so he cannot speak infallibly, I think if you are honest you will have to agree, is flawed.*****


And the sins he does....doesn't that make you wonder what, and if they were those things that have brought you where you are today. What if he had purposely been calling the wrong shots, and was repenting of them, Wouldn't you be upset?

**** Let me let you in on a little secret sherrie. I am not tuned in to radio free vatican every day. I do not wait for the Papal blessing on the morning so that I can get out of bed and take a shower. I take my leadership from the Pope and the Church but test it well against scripture and tradition contrary to the ideas about me that have been pumped in to your mind. And in truth there are few Papal statements that are considered infallible. He is the final arbiter when there are disputes in the Church on critical issues of faith and morals. I do consider his wisdom when I hear him speak. ***


Why isn't anyone but a catholic College in 1967 asking questions?

*** I said last night to another poster, my fait is in Jesus Christ and that he guides his Church even when the leaders committ sins. So what questoins should I be asking? The Pope is a sinner. He goes to confession. That shows me he has a desire to root those sins, no matter how small or large they may be out of his life. In knowing Catholics who go to confession and those who don't I can tell you which group I would trust more and which show a more Christian spirit toward there fellow man. If you somehow think confessoin is not a soul searching experience that does not involve thoughts of repenting to God for our sins, you are sadly mistaken. Those who go to confession are not neccessarily bigger sinners but are more aware of their daily sins and the need to repent of them. ***

If someone makes moral decisions for you, why aren't you questioning them? Yes, yes, I know they are decisions for a church. But you go to that church and you live by those rules. Why?


*** Once again, I have to say I don't understand the question. Every single religious leader in the world is a sinner. That does not make all there decisions bad. Paul says in Hebrews:

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

There is no indication that he thinks these leaders are all sinless. There is much more scripture that I would like to go in to on this one but this post is going to be far to long. Check out Ez 33 if you get a chance. *****


And what is so wrong with wondering if the Pope is messing around with those nuns? He knew about all those other Bishops, and others in the church, messing around in the church, and did nothing about it. Oh yes, your right, he made up some more moral rules.


**** Well for one thing until I have hard eveidence it is simply gossip. That is a sin in our Church Sherrie. How about yours. ****

Don't you ever want to say what is this Pope guy thinking? Or do you really think this guy is the next guy in line to be Christ?


**** Well, I have read some of his works and heard him speak. I know he has alot better knowledge and understanding of Jesus Christ than anyone on this board. *****

Listen to this even; heres an eye opener for you, he has no connections to those dead Apostles. Mary doesn't even hear him.

**** Once again Sherrie. I need scripture. Where does it say that those in heaven do not hear those on earth. Scripture says we are "surrounded by a cloud of witnesses". In Luke's Gospel Jesus tells the apostles that they shall sit on thrones and judge nations in his kingdom (which in the book of revalations, chapter 8 I believe we see 24 elders sitting on thrones. This from my understanding is interpruted as the patriarchs of the 12 tribes of Isreal and the 12 Apostles). It also says there is great joy in heaven amongst the angels over one repentent sinner.

Luke 15:10
"In the same way, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."


How do they know of his true heartfelt repentence unless they hear it? We are told that we shall be like angels when we are in heaven so I see no reason to think that we will not experience this joy also. Your not given me alot of scripture Sherrie, Just regurgitating the same old lines I have heard from Protestants a hundred times. Let your mind rome a bit. Go beyond what you have been told about us Catholics and what we believe. I have added you to my prayer list.

"If you have something to repent of; God gave His Son Jesus. Jesus died on the cross. Jesus shed His blood for us. Jesus sent His Holy Spirit. Jesus taught us how to pray to the Father. Jesus is our intercessor."

Amen! Well said Sherrie. Very Catholic too. Though certainly we can interceed for eachother, would you not agree?

Timothy 2:1-4
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men,
for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


But I hate to tell you thiAs but you have things that you do every day that you need to repent of. So do I. We are sinners. We however grow everday in our savior Jesus Christ, rooting out those sins that are still in us. Or at least I hope you do. The new Christian is not immediately sin free. He has to grow in holliness. ***


Now I do not pretent to know everything, or anything about Catholics. So would you answer my questions. Then I might be enlightened by it.

*** I hope I did. Ask some more if you like. God bless you Sherrie ***


Sherrie,

One more thing....

"Do you all ever think he messed around with any of those Nuns. Maybe not now, since he is old, but maybe earlier on in his road to Popehood."

Couple verses for you before you put away those racy romance novels you've been reading.

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

Ephesians 5:4
and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.

 

Sherrie,

So you continue to assume that the Pope has sexually abused nuns, and you continue to act like it's viable to think so, and yet you continue to provide no evidence accept "there's a scandal." And apparently, that means all priests are sexual offenders.

Further, in matters of faith and doctrine, with which I am quite familiar, I am not being lead in any false direction. I joined the Church; coming from a Church teaching Sola Scriptura, I compared everything to Scripture. Everything lines up when you stop looking through Protestant glasses.

You call it hate; I call these posts hate. We get nowhere.

This post, by its very nature, is deceitful. How much discussion has been on "what kind of sins the pope confesses" and how much of it has been, "Grant, why do you trust the Pope?"

God bless,

Grant

 

Don't you wonder at all about who is leading you? Don't you read your Bible?

My Bible shows Jesus giving the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and a hefty load of rabbinical authority to Peter in Matthew 16 and rabbinical authority to the other Apostles in Matthew 18.