End Times

I think these things are told because the Bible clearly says believers will be rewarded for works. Working out salvation means we are to respond to the HS and be conformed to the image of Christ willingly. God will do it, but we might not be willing all the time.

 

The saints will be raptured either before or during the Tribulation. But those saved during the Tribulation are told to come out of Babylon in Rev. 18.

 

J.Jump,

quote:
------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by J. Jump:
The biggest reason is that we are not guaranteed a spot in the Kingdom of Christ (1,000 years)
------------------------------------------------

Please note that the Martyrs are "guaranteed"
a place in the Kingdom ... not only will they
"reign with Christ" in heaven for 1000 years
(Rev.20:4); but they will

"serve God day and night in the Temple of heaven". This happens before the New Jerusalem
comes down upon the New Earth since there will
be "no temple nor day and night" after 1000 years. Rev.21:22,25.

They win the highest obtainable reward that
is offered to the Church!!!
Read Rev.7:15-17 and then Rev.3:12.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Marcia unfortunately there are some that aren't willing any of the time. Those will be the ones that do not participate in the kingdom, but they are still eternally "saved."

The church will indeed be raptured before the seven-year tribulation (all the church).

Mel I'm not sure where you got the "serve God day and night in the Temple of heaven" quote. The martyrs that come out of the tribulation will indeed rule and reign with Christ on His earthly kingdom. Christians today are in a position to occupy a place in His heavenly kingdom.

So there will be an earthly kingdom that Israel will occupy with Christ and then qualified Christians will rule from the heavenly sphere with Christ.

 

Marcia,

Quote:
_______________________________________________
The saints will be raptured either before or during the Tribulation. But those saved during the Tribulation are told to come out of Babylon in Rev. 18.
_______________________________________________

What evidence do you have that the Rapture
will take place prior to the fall of Babylon?

The Ten Kings will destroy the City before
God puts it into their hearts to "give their
power and authority to the Beast"!!!

Marcia, those who are martyred during the
great tribulation are as much recipients of
the promise to be "kept from the hour of
trial" as you and I are recipients.

For the text that makes this promise also
includes the promise of their reward to
"serve God in the temple of heaven" for
1000 years! This is most amazing if you think about it. Rev.3:10-12.

So the "Day of Wrath and Hour of Trial" must be
limited to a single 12-Hour Day IMO.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

The simple truth is that in response to the 144,000 witnesses, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, many, of every description, will be saved during the tribulation. They will also be martyred for their faith, but saved, nonetheless.

Those Christians who were caught up in the rapture obviously are not those mentioned in Mel's posts. Again, why do we debate this? It is going to happen! Choose now to be saved, sanctified, and justified, or to remain lost for eternity. That's the ONLY issue! Why put up a website voicing one view over another? Bible interpreters come to different conclusions, then ride their horse to death. For what purpose? Does the Bible need interpreters? All scripture is spiritually discerned! Does that mean there are several spirits? NO! Who has spiritual discernment? The born-again Believer! So how is it that so many who profess to be born again in this choir are singing the wrong notes?

 

genesis12,

You ask two questions that are strange to me.
_______________________________________________
Again, why do we debate this?
Does the Bible need interpreters?
_______________________________________________

Evidently you are interested or you would not
take part in the debates. The fact that there
are so many viewpoints perhaps reveals that
there needs to be found a basic premise that
will be agreed to by all who participate.

My basic premise is that the Day of God's wrath
is a single 12-Hour Day that includes the Hour
of Trial from the consequences of which all who "keep God's word to endure are exempt"
until Christ comes with all the Saints!
Rev.3:10-11.

Why do I make this premise? It's because even
the Martyrs until the Day Christ comes will be
rewarded by "serving God in heaven's temple"
for 1000 years ... a promise that doesn't apply
to Church members who "overcome to the end".
Rev.3:12; Rev.7:15-17; Rev.20:4; Rev.2:25-27.

From this premise I have proposed that there
will be no common agreement on the coming of
Christ until it is recognized that 100 verses
in the Book of Revelation will be fulfilled
on the very Day Christ comes in glory and power.

These 100 verse may be found at my Centerpiece
and they reveal the "resurrection and rewards"
promised to the Saints will occur at the 7th
Trumpet on the Day of God's Wrath and Gathering
of all the Saints.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Agree, today it has no meaning to we in the Body of Christ, other than the immediacy of "spreading His Word from Heaven". But many while “bravely” saying they will go through the tribulation”, need to understand they will not, if they are in the Body of Christ Church. I believe it is getting close to full, but who knows? Entrance into the Body of Christ comes only by the “grace commission”, and until the filling of His Body is accomplished, the boundaries of hell are being expanded.

Hell of course came about to house Satan, and his followers. Look how much it has had to be enlarged already. It is getting larger every day. While the Body of Christ Church I believe will have so many members, and also those in the kingdom of the Apostles, and the Holy City and Temple are measured, hell is ever expanding.

Will the kingdom of God be limited? We don’t know what awaits us in the “unsearchable riches of Christ, or God’s kingdom.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

Calvibaptist:
//Christians for 1850 years missed what you consider to be "God's purpose."
Until then, most believed that the prophecies of Matthew 24-25
and Revelation referred to the struggle of the people
of God against the world throughout its history
and the good news that God's kingdom would eventually win.//

Probably your statement isn't true especially this part:
// ... most believed that the prophecies of Matthew 24-25
and Revelation referred to the struggle of the people
of God against the world throughout its history ... //

Such a belief is contradictory to Matthew 24 Itself where
Jesus says:

Matthew 24:21 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/

For at that time there will be great tribulation,
the kind that hasn't taken place since the beginning of the
world into now, and never will again.

BTW, note that if the tribulation time ends with the
Second advent of Jesus then the world ends, as some are want
to believe, then Jesus made a false statement. There has to
be something better happen after the Tribulation Period
so the words of Jesus 'never will gain' are true.

IMHO it is wrong to call the last 2,000 years a period
of great tribulation that is worse than the
four thousand years before. This belief also negates what
Jesus clearly said.

So, no, I don't belive that most people 33AD through
1830 believed just like those who badly need a supporting
argument and make this one up

Calvibaptist: //The purpose of God throughout the history of the world has ALWAYS
been to redeem a people for Himself to the praise of the glory of His grace.//

Amen, Brother Calvibaptist. and on the last 'day' (the 7-year
= 2 times 3½-years) 'day' called The Tribulation Period, Jesus
will not only raise up His redeemed gentiles at the beginning of
the 'day' Jesus will also raise up His redeemed Israeli/Jewish
people at the end of the 'day'. Ain't God Good!!

John3v36:
//Regardless of whether and when the End Times come, what would
they change? The saved would be saved, the unsaved
would be unsaved, the Kingdom of God would neither
expland nor contract, moreover, nothing can be done
by mortals to either accelerate or delay this prophecy,
so what practical significance does it have? //

Strangely, the Bible directly answers your question.
The answer to all your questions is in 2 Peter 3 (I've
memorized that address, cause, I asked the same question
a time or two myself.

The answer is clearest here:

2 Peter 3:11-12a (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way,
it is clear what sort of people youshould be in holy
conduct and godliness as you wait for and earnesty desire
the coming of the day of God ...

So the coming destruction of the earth and the elements of
the world order is reason for us to LIVE RIGHT in the here-and-now.

BTW, I can tell you when THE LAST DAYS started:

Acts 2:16b-17a (HCSB):

... this is what was spoken through the prohet Joel:
17. And it will be in the last days, says God,
that I will pour out MY SPIRIT on all humanity ...

The LAST DAYS began on the Day of Pentacost in the year
I believe to be 33AD. The LAST DAYS continue until now
and will continue until the pretribulation rapture takes
place ending THE LAST DAYS. Then the LAST DAY itself will
take place, the Tribulation Period, a 7-year-long 'day'.

J.D.: //I believe the bible is intentionally
vague on the future so that we would walk by faith.//

If perchance you ever are revealed the total details of
all eschatology, you would still have to walk by faith.


Another good verse that shows why eschatology is
important:

2 Peter 3:17 (HCSB):

Therefore, dear friends, since you have
been forewarned, be on your guard, so that you
are not lead away by the error of the immoral
and fall from your own stability.

So keep the faith, dear brothers and sisters.
Live Right and Do Good cause the Lord is going to come
get you and take you to heaven right before the destruction
of 90%+ of humanity.

Matthew 24:21-22a (HCSB):
For at that time there will be great tribulation the kind that
hasn't taken place since the beginng of the
world until now, and nver will again!
Unless those days were cut short, no one would survive. ...

Now there are some that say the Lord won't come get us
Christians until the end of the Tribulation period when
over 90% of the people of the world are dead, 7-years too
late. They are the ones who think it is necessary to
scare Christians into being good, like they are supposed to
do. Sorry, good works

Bill Brown: // I do not believe in a rapture,//

Would you describe and/or define the 'rapture' that you
don't believe in? I find nearly every time someone really answers
this question (instead of doing a non-Baptist DANCE around the
subject) they describe raptures I don't believe in either.
But I believe in a rapture and I believe cleary that the
Lord, Messiah Yeshua, Christos Iesus, Christ Jesus, will RAPTURE
His own prior to the Tribulation Period.

Some say that 'rapture' isn't in the Bible. Well maybe it isn't
in their Bible. But 'rapture' is certainly in the Latin Bibles
at 1 Thessalonians 4:17. My HCSB translats the Greek word
as 'caught up' but the Latin translation is 'rapture'.

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18 (HCSB):
Then we wo are still alive will be
caught up together with them in the clouds to
meed the Lord in the air; and so
we will always be with the Lord
18. Therefore encourage one another with these words.

My Bible says were are encourage one another to
do good works using words like 'rapture'.
I believe there will be a rapture. Quite frankly,
I think God will have more than one 'rapture'.
Our God wants to resurrect (the dead come back to life)
and rapture (the living are changed) lots of people.
I believe there will be a physical/literal rapture
comming soon to a world near you SOON! Amen!

Genesis12: //Why am I in this forum debating instead
of lifting up the Name of Jesus in the public square?
I don't know of anyone who is changed by Christian
forum debates. I do know of many who are angered!//

I don't know of anyone who is changed by public
demonstrations. Public demos only make me angry
I'm for letting guest workers work in the USofA, even
if my children do get paid less in competition.
I certainly don't mind paying for my children. I'm
giving four people monthly money to help them with
college work. I support two children below the
college level.

 

Amen, Brother Ed, Preach it

 

I have TWO sets of verses which SHOULD clear up ALL the debate about EndTimes and what WE should be doing these days. They are as followswithout further comment....just believe'em and live by faith)
Ecclesiastes 12:13-14
13-"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:Fear God,and keep His commandments:for this is the whole duty of man.
14-For God shall bring every work into judgement,with every secret thing,whether it be good,or whether it be evil."

and...from the New Testament...

Colossians 3:1-4
1-"If ye then be risen with Christ,seek those things which are above,where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2-Set your affections on things above,not on things on the earth.
3-For ye are dead,and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4-When Christ,who is our life,shall appear,then shall ye also appear with Him in glory."

God Bless You All!!

Greg Sr.

 

Greg Sr.,

Your point is well-meant; but some people want to
know what to expect in the days just before Christ comes and ON the Day He comes in great
glory and power.

IMO, there are 100 verses in the Book of Revel-
ation describing events of that 12-Hour Day.

The order of these events helps Endtime Martyrs understand what they will face "in the days
whenever the 7th Trumpet is about to sound".
Rev.10:6-7. They will need the encouragement
of this Book to remain faithful to the END.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Gregory Perry Sr. As I read your post I was very disappointed not to find anything referring to soulwinning and the great commission.

 

Maybe the commission isn't that great. Last week I won 20 souls and only got 10% commission.

[This is a joke. This is only a joke. If you did not find it funny, then either it wasn't funny or you take things way too seriously, so here's a nickel to go buy a sense of humor. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.]

 

What is the great commission? Can you give the references to it, so that we may see it in its entirety?

Christian faith, ituttut

 

And God Bless You Sir.
Christian faith, ituttut

 

Genesis12: //Why put up a website voicing one view over another?//

It draws the crowds. Mel Miller's site www.lastday.net
will draw hundreds of people to witness to each day.
Mel Miller probably witnesses to more people each day than
all the rest of the participants in this discussion combined.

Several times (various boards) I tryed a thread like:
"Good works and how to do them". Very few came. After awile
I'd loose interest also (this was before blogs were popular,
i guess now I could blog and a few would come, eh?)
However, get a good OSAS (once saved, always saved) type
Security of Salvation discussion/debate/feud going and dozens of
people will come by and put in their 2¢ worth.

Same way with end times discussion, the public will come to see
what all the posts are about. Anyway, we are 'study it for yourselves'
and 'let the Holy Spirit speak with you' type Baptist persons,
so each of us must reach our own eschatological position.
So, I think that posting in such copies is a more effective method
of witnessing than many others: specifically better than
street preaching and random door knocking.

 

Brother Ed:

I want to thank you for not being critical of my
Website in stating:
________________________________________________
Genesis12: //Why put up a website voicing one view over another?//
________________________________________________

On Dec.23, 1988, my best friend and I were suddenly convinced (independently of each other)
that the White Horseman of the Apocalypse was
aleady at work in the world with the goal of
spreading and defending the role of Democracy.

On Dec.23, 1991, another friend and I together
realized John the Apostle would become one of
the Two Witnesses.

Without question, the stats show that my article on the Apostle at the Website is being read by 100's of thousands; more than any other message I have posted in the last seven years.

But my main theme has not "caught on" with the
run-of-the-mill public. That theme is an
innovative approach to the Book of Revelation.
I have believed, since June 23, 1995, that 100
verses in Revelation will be fulfilled on the
12-Hour Day of God's wrath which begins with
Seal #6.

This thematic position supports my basic premise that the Day of the Lord is a single 12-Hour Day and NOT a period of months or years; especially NOT the "63 month-length" of that Day proposed by the first Left Behind Book, P.310-312.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Where did they get 63 months???

 

Me4Him,

"The first 21 months (84-21 leaves 63 months for the trumpets and plagues) encompass what the Bible calls the Seven Seal Judgments. Then comes
another 21 month period for the seven Trumpet
Judgments. In the last 42 months of the seven-
years of tribulation, if we have survived, we
will endure the most severe tests, the seven
Vial Judgments". Book One, Left Behind, P.309.

"The 7th Seal introduces the 7 Trumpet Judgments which take place in the second quarter of this seven year period". P. 312.

The "signs" of Seal Six's "Day of God's Wrath" take place "after the great tribulation" according to Jesus. The Left Behind Book claims
these "signs" occur at the end of the first 21
months of Daniel's 70th Seven. The word of the Lord is disallowed by making its "signs" occur
21 months BEFORE instead of "in the days AFTER the great tribulation". Mark 13:24; Matt.24:29.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net