Divisions among Christians

"Come out of her MY PEOPLE" Rev 18:1-3 is a call to God's OWN children that ARE in the errors of Babylon. So "yes" there are worshipping God and they ARE God's people - but they are also IN the errors of Babylon.

As the Jews in the days of Christ needed to "follow the truth" even though it "differed" from their leadership's views - so we must also have a "love of the truth" today that extends beyond the views of our "leadership" today.

We all start from the premise that our own group is "right". That is not the challenging part. The challenge is to find a way to step outside the box and objectively consider what is being said. The way the Jews had to do - 2000 years ago.

They were not "starting from the premise" - of "Well lets see now, we are wrong of course - but who is going to come along and show us just how wrong we are? Who will be the Messiah and expose all these errors that we have". And neither do we.

In Christ,

Bob

 

GH, think about these questions, please.

(1) What are we saved FROM?
(2) When was Paul saved FROM THAT?


I read in the Bible that we are saved from sin and that Paul was still in his sins until he was baptized - it was at the point of baptism that his sins were washed away. Therefore, since we are to be saved from sin and sin is not washed away until baptism, we must not be saved until baptism. Thus, Peter can truly say "baptism now saves you through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" AND "not by the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience" for the saving power of baptism is not in the water washing the body, but the blood of Christ washing away sins which it does IN baptism and which obviously cleanses the conscience.

 

Romans 8 regarding the UNSAVED person PRIOR to the New Birth - the total depravity of man

"The heart set on the flesh DOES not subject itself to God's Will/Law/Word neither indeed CAN it". Romans 8:3-6

"There is NONE that does good NOT EVEN ONE" Romans 3.

The "idea" that the unforgiven/unchanged heart "hears with faith", "believes", "repents", "studies to know the will of God", "submits to Baptism" and is THEN transformed... does not work.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Dear Sola, I think about these questions and many others all the time.


Q. What are we saved FROM?

A. From saving ourselves. From death unto Life. From separation from God (reconciliation).

To be subject to God:
Heb.12:9b Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living.

Continuing with Hebrews 2:

Heb.2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Jesus tasted death for all. So all have been died for.

Heb.2:17 Whence He ought, in all things, to be made like the brethren, that He may be becoming a merciful and faithful Chief Priest in that which is toward God, to make a propitiatory shelter for the sins of the people.

Jesus made propitiation for the sins of the people.

Furthermore, we have this in Hebrews:

Heb.9:26 since it had behooved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested; {YLT}

Q. When was Paul saved FROM THAT?

A. Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, IF GOD PERMIT.

My opinion – I don’t think Paul cared about WHEN rather but WHO (God) – since he taught that Christ was slain before the foundations of the world were laid. In fact, he down played baptism in 1 Cor., I believe. I don’t see Paul preaching a whole lot about baptism, but on the other hand he speaks often about our Lord. I see him as realizing the differing opinions that were arising in the early church but encouraged all to press on in Christ. I do not wish to cast aspersions on baptism and other rituals of the church or to offend anyone, but the details of when are much like straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to me in light of that glorious personal encounter with the Living God that I mentioned several posts above.

I’m in agreement with Bob Ryan’s post above – and I quote:

"The "idea" that the unforgiven/unchanged heart "hears with faith", "believes", "repents", "studies to know the will of God", "submits to Baptism" and is THEN transformed... does not work."

Like I said, first comes love, then comes marriage. When Christ reveals Himself, love transforms with or without baptism. What if someone was unable for whatever reason to be baptized? Do you really think a ritual can save you? I respect your opinion, but I cannot accept that as truth. Nothing is too hard for God. I really don’t believe that He would withhold forgiveness of sin because someone wasn’t baptized. Besides, you quoted Peter. Didn’t Paul have some difficulty with some of Peter’s actions concerning the gentiles? Peter was kind of stuck in Judaism somewhat and Paul called him on it. Could it be possible that Peter didn’t get it yet when he wrote that verse you quoted? After all, he sometimes misunderstood what the Spirit was instructing him (and don’t we all), ie. Refusing to have Jesus wash his feet, trying to talk Jesus out of going to Jerusalem (get thee behind me Satan), cutting off an ear, calling down fire on the Jews, building a booth when ‘Jesus only’ was quite sufficient, refusing to kill and eat what God had made clean, and most importantly acting differently with gentiles than he did with the Jews. Pretty significant evidence imo that we cannot apply Paul’s conversion as interpreted through Peter or anyone else for that matter.

Also, I have no doubt that Paul, the apostle of grace and the apostle to the gentiles, was baptized, I just don’t believe he taught it as a requirement for forgiveness of sin.

And yes indeed Sola, the blood of Christ washes away sins. Praise His holy Name. \o/

Peace, GH

 

Hi GH! The book of Revelation is written to the churches. It is apparant from the letters to the churches that some of the individuals in the churches are not "worthy", are not truly saved.

It is also apparant that many of the injunctions given by Jesus in the "letters to the churches" are meant for individuals considered seperately, not for the church as a whole.

Therefore the idea of Jesus knocking at a "door" associated with an individual is a perfectly reasonable understanding of that verse.

But aren't we getting hung up on matters of language here, rather than anything that really matters?

None of us becomes saved unless we go through some kind of act of commitment to Him. All of us have Jesus in our hearts after being saved. I think its quibbling to say we didn't ASK Him to come into our hearts, when whatever we did ask Him or say to Him or whatever we do when we get saved - results in Him coming into our hearts!

 

Dear P of E,

you wrote:

I think its quibbling to say we didn't ASK Him to come into our hearts, when whatever we did ask Him or say to Him or whatever we do when we get saved - results in Him coming into our hearts!

I reply:

lol - never let it be said that I'm a quibbler.

Whether one asks or not - no one can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him. Lest any man boast. That's how I see it, but I certainly wouldn't quibble about it. I seek only to give Christ all the glory in my own life. What you do is between you and God.

The book of Rev. is written to believers - some carnel (still seeing Him as outside of themselves), some spiritual (knowing Him as their life). The carnel minded don't enter the Kingdom as their hearts are not set upon Him, but upon the flesh (external practices ie. what must I do rather than what God has already done).

This may be quibbling in your eyes but it is the difference between ministering life or death in mine.

Peace in Him, GH

[ April 01, 2003, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: GH ]

 

Break Dividing Walls (by David Ruis, I think)

"There is a place of commanded blessing
Where brethren in unity dwell
A place where anointing oil is flowing
And we live as one

You have called us to be a body
You have called us as friends
Joined together in the bond of the Spirit
Unto the end

Father we join with the prayer of Jesus
As you are so let us be one
Joined together in unity and purpose
All for the love of your son

We will break dividing walls
We will break dividing walls
We will break dividing walls in the name of your Son
We will break dividing walls
We will break dividing walls and we will be one"