End Times

Mel, I'm not criticising your website alone. I'm criticising all websites which purport to show a " new revelation ." You, Mel, match my critique perfectly. You can spend the next 21 years developing your website. You can employ all forms of mathematics, your own private interpretations, comments from others ("My best friend and I were suddenly convinced...."), you can write a hundred books, have a zillion visitors to your website, and in the final analysis it won't make one ounce of difference . Some will tune you out, others will tune you in. What will they have gained? There are NO new revelations!! Those who receive Jesus as Savior will be saved. Those who don't will be lost. Pure and simple: Jesus is coming again. He is coming again soon, I pray. We're either ready, or we aren't. That's the name of that tune. That's the bottom line. If you want to post the plan of salvation only , go for it!! It's been done, but maybe someone will see it at your site. Use background music, angelic graphics, whatever .. just tell folks what they must do today to be saved.

[ April 16, 2006, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: genesis12 ]

 

The trib is One week or 7 years, of that period only 42 months is given to the "beast from Hell", the "Great tribulations" doesn't begin until he ascends up from hell.

The First half of the trib is "Peace/flatteries", Covenant between Israel/AC/arabs.

At or near the middle, the head wound is inflicted, "THAT MAN" dies, but his body is "Reincarnated" by the "spirit of Judas" from the bottomles pit, the world believes he has been "Resurrected" just as Jesus was.

He then enter the temple for the ABOD, it's from this point that people are told to flee into the mountains, not before, and when the "peace and safety" comes to an end.


People overlook the fact that the Spirit of the "First AC person " is not the same "SPIRIT" of the person of the second AC.

This divides the trib into two periods, Like Jesus, the first is "peaceable", but the second is a devil from hell, the AC "mimics" Jesus in many different areas, dying/coming back to life, coming on a "white horse" is just two.


AC
Re 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

Jesus
Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


The first seal is opened immediately after the rapture.

2Th 2:7 only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (Rapture)

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,

(to the world, but they won't recognize as the AC)

I haven't studied the trib, other than where it "overlaps" with my other studies, so the sequence of when/within that time frame events take place I'm a little on the "ignorant side".

 

Me4Him,

You requested info on where I found the Left
Behind Book teaching of 63 months for the
period indicated by the 6th Seal.

I gave you that info and you respond with
views that have to do with the AC instead
of Seal Six. You introduce other topics
like the AC being killed and reincarnated.
This method leads to confusion.

I find this characteristic of your posts.
You don't stick to the subject but go off on
tangents.

What part of the Daniel's 70th Seven do you
believe Seal Six addresses? That's the point
of your question to me. Why keep going "all around the bush" as the saying goes?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Preach on Mel

 

Ituttut,

You make statements without scriptural evidence:

"The rapture has occurred, then the 1st seal is opened".

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ituttut,

Mark 13:

19,24 - WHEN – “In the Days after the greatest tribulation of all time”.
25 - WHAT - Signs in the sun, moon and stars.
26 – THEN – “They will see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory”.
27 – THEN – “Then He will send (apostelei; 3rd person sing) His angels …AND He will gather (episunaξei; 3rd person sing) His elect upon the 4 winds from the extremity of earth (akrou γης) to the extremity of heaven”.
[Note below the Tribes of earth mourn "Next"].
================================================

Matt.24:

21,29 – WHEN – “Immediately after the greatest tribulation of all time”. Signs in heaven.
________________________________________________
30 – THEN - “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven AND all the tribes of earth will mourn”. [Mark does not mention this]. ________________________________________________
30 – WHAT – “They will see the Son of Man coming with power and great glory”.
31 – AND – “HE will send (apostelei; 3rd sing) His angels with a great trumpet and
31 - THEY will gather episunaξousin; 3rd pl)
His elect out of the 4 winds from the extremities of the heavens (akrwn ouranwn) to the extremities of them”. [They angels finish gathering all the elect globally unto Jesus]!

Ituttut, since you cannot produce a scripture which contradicts the words of Jesus Himself,
there is no basis for your theory that the Rapture will occur “before the Lamb opens the first seal”!

The point of discussion is that God's "Day of wrath" does not begin until Seal Six opens AND
the appointed time (HOUR) for that wrath does not occur until the 7th Trumpet sounds that
"God's wrath has come"!

And until the Last (7th) Plauge empties in the air, "no one can enter the OPEN Temple" to witness the Coronation of Christ nor to hear that the "appointed time" for Resurrection (judging the dead) and the Rapture (rewarding the saints) and Retribution (to destroy the destroyers of earth) also "has come"! Read Rev.15:5-8. The Temple "was open" as of the
7th Trumpet. Rev.11:19.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Mel if you know this (the rapture occurred), what year was it? If you know this, then you know when the tribulation started and when it will end.

Who is the anti-christ? Scripture shows he will appear after the rapture. No anti-christ means no tribulation period, yet.

 

Verse 19, "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be." Aren't you saying that something greater than the "flood" has happened? Can you show when this "greater affliction" happened.

Verse 24, " 24. But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light". When did it happen?

When did this happen? It is future as "Then they will see……". Since this has not happened, it must be in the future. This will affect the whole earth. This will be during the tribulation to come.

Then the second coming, but only after our "rapture".

Amen! Scripture showed the "elect" to be God's people, those He elected of Israel only - until Damascus Road. Today there is a "remnant of those brought in by grace of all peoples according to Romans 11:5. We today can now be numbered (known), elected by God.

But we today in the Body of Christ will be raptured, and verse 27 is God again dealing with His people.

Verse 28 shows this is of His people, and not we of "grace" today for the parable is of the "fig tree" always denotes Israel.

Your Matthew references is the same utterance of Jesus as in your above Mark.

You just furnished scripture showing the rapture has not yet occurred. You defeat your own purpose of putting forth error of understanding scripture.

If tribulation is here you have to come up with a name of a man. If you know him, can't you share with us his name so we may in earnest pray "give us this day our daily bread", for those that refuse the "mark" will not be able "sell or buy" food. We in the Body of Christ will not be here in this terrible time.

II Thessalonians 2. While we rest, the unsaved are in "tribulation".

Let's go back to what you failed to answer, "And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb". This scripture is after the sixth seal is opened.

I have presented scripture showing the "six seals" are the tribulation. I'm trying to understand how you can prove by scripture what was in your post to Me4Him, viz. "The "signs" of Seal Six's "Day of God's Wrath" take place "after the great tribulation"??

 

The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul."

Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.

Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,

The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.

While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,


There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.

1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Tribulation period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.

But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.

 

Straight out of the Thomas Ice playbook. So apostasia means lift up or rapture?


G646
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

The twisting of words that dispies do to make words mean what they want is quite amusing. So now apostasy is a good thing. Makes sense, if "near", "at hand" and "soon" can mean 2000 years then apostasy can mean "falling upward".

 

Straight out of the Thomas Ice playbook. So apostasia means lift up or rapture?


G646
apostasia
Thayer Definition:
1) a falling away, defection, apostasy
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: feminine of the same as G647
Citing in TDNT: 1:513, 88

The twisting of words that dispies do to make words mean what they want is quite amusing. So now apostasy is a good thing. Makes sense, if "near", "at hand" and "soon" can mean 2000 years then apostasy can mean "falling upward". </font>[/QUOTE]Apostasy means simply a "removal of Christianity". Do you know of a better way to "remove christianity" than to remove ALL Christians?

 

You assume I believe in the premise of removing Christianity?

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If rapture would have been in mind, “depart” would have been a better word, not apostasy.

apochōreō
Thayer Definition:
1) to go away, depart
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and G5562

Apostasy is used one other time in the NT:

Act 21:21 And they are informed concerning you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the nations to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, nor to walk after the customs.

If you, Ed and Thomas Ice wish to stick with your interpretation be my guest. It strengthens my view.

Is an apostate one who is raptured? I guess in your view being an apostate would be a good thing?

 

Amen Ed Edwards. Those "comforting" words tell us we will not go through the tribulation.

 

You assume I believe in the premise of removing Christianity?

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

If rapture would have been in mind, “depart” would have been a better word, not apostasy.

</font>[/QUOTE]You seem to forget that Christ could not tell what God had hidden from the beginning. No one, but no one knew the "purpose of God". You believe Jesus' words on earth. Why don't you believe what he tells you from heaven?

You also forget, or have not read that Paul is the Only Apostle that the Gentiles have. Christ from heaven gave to him His dispensational gospel of "grace". The Jewish church in Jerusalem had their gospel, and the Christians (containing both Gentile and Jew) had their gospel. The Christian gospel is what we today have.

Can you explain why James, Peter, John and those of authority of the Jewish church shook hands with Paul, Barnabas, and Titus, telling them we will not preach our gospel to your Gentiles?

 

More jewels from the dispie camp. Two Gospels.

Where in scripture does this handshake agreement take place?

 

Grasshopper,

Thanks for upholding the word of the Lord.
His word of "comfort" is that those who
"survive to the End" will be "caught up
to meet their loved ones". The "loved ones"
include every one who has "died in the
Lord" and that includes the Trib-Martyrs.

The biggest "deception" blinding Christians
today was sowed during the 1940's when
editors of the Scofield Bible, for the
first time, began teaching that the APOSTASY
is the "departure" of the Church to heaven
before Antichrist can be revealed.

Up until the '40's the Church had always
taught that the APOSTASY requires the
removal of the FALSE Church; not the TRUE
Church.

The unstable Pre-Trib theory was "propped up"
by this sudden departure from the accepted
meaning of FALSE TEACHING. Their interpre-
tation of APOSTASY became a PART of the
false teaching that blinds them to this day.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

More jewels from the dispie camp. Two Gospels.

Where in scripture does this handshake agreement take place? </font>[/QUOTE]Galatians 2, and Acts 15

 

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I've always associated the falling away with the rejection of the Holy Ghost as leader of the church/people, and many false doctrines being accepted,

And the reason I believe that is because of what the scriptures say will be the condition of the world at that time.

Mt 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Let's take another look at these verses, "side by side".

2Th 2:3

1. except there come a falling away first,

2. and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:7

1. until he be taken out of the way.

2. And then shall that Wicked be revealed,


One thing is evident, there is a "Spiritual Departure" from the leadership of the Spirit and a "Literal Departure" (two in field) of the church before the AC arrives.

I don't see any problems with ED's Apostasy having both a Spiritual and literal interpretation/application.

There's literally hundreds, if not thousands, of other verses which do have "DUAL" applications.

 

Simply put, Thayer notwithstanding, the Greek 'word' I have tried to transliterate as "he apostasia", from the two words meaning out away from (apo) and a standing, state, or position (stasis) merely means a departure, as a compound word. What this departure is from must be determined by subject and context.

I would submit that a word that is used only two times in the NT, is probably a little more 'vague', as to intent, than one used, say, thirty times.
Just a thought.

In His grace,
Ed