Trinity or no trinity?

What do you believe about the Godhead?

 

Helen,

Jesus Christ MEANS Jehovah's Salvation.

Well translated through like 3 different languages but that's what it means!

It is NOT hard to reconcile that Jehovah is the ONE God, and that His Son, Jesus Christ IS NOT that One God. He is NOT another God.

Trinitarians worships THREE GODS who they believe are all of the SAME age. They believe in THREE ALMIGHTY Gods - "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Spirit". They say that these three Gods add up, to make up, the One God.

Now to directly answer your question. No, God the Father and His Son do NOT make TWO Gods. There's only one God, the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6) Jesus Himself said of His Father that His Father is the "only true God" (John 17:3). God's Son proceeded forth from the Father before all ages in eternity past, before the creation. Although God's Son is begotten in the "express image", an exact reproduction of God the Father - this does NOT constitute TWO Almighty Gods. Why? Because God's Son inherits (Hebrews 1:4) all of the attributes of God, His Father. The Father never had a beginning. His Son did. They are equal in their divine nature, and their holy character. But they are not equal in age. The Father existed before His Son. The Father is unbegotten. He's the Eternal Deity. God's Son is begotten by the Father. He is Deity due to His relation to His Father. But He isn't as old as His Father. Jesus said "My Father is greater than I." (John 14:28) Interesting here that the Greek word for "greater" also means "elder". God the Father is "self-existent", and like I stated above, unbegotten. His Son, has the same quality of life that the Father has - because the Father GAVE it to Him. He has the Father's "self existent", "underived", "life in Himself" quality of life. (John 5:26).

So, there is but one God, the Father, who is the Source of All things (1 Corinthians 8:6). And He begot a Son in "His express image" (Hebrews 1:3), inheriting God's name and attributes (Hebrews 1:4). He has an omnipresent Holy Spirit which represents the personal presence of God the Father and His Son.

God Bless

[ March 26, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

2 Cor 4: 3. But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Collosians 1:12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

1 Thess 5:5. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

James 1:17. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

2 Peter 1:16. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
17. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
18. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
19. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

1 John 1: 1. That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2. (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
3. That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5. This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

There are some things said about Jesus in those passages that I believe should be summed up.


-Image of the invisible God
-Firstborn of every CREATURE
-BY and FOR Him were all things created
-He is BEFORE all things
-BY Him all things CONSIST
-He is the Head of the Body, the Church
-The Firstborn of the dead
-In all things HE is the beginning
-He has preeminence over all things
-In Him all the fulness dwells

Firstly, I am the SAME yesterday, today and forever. That doesn't make me God. I will ALWAYS be me. I was me yesterday, I am me today, and I will still be me tomorrow. What does 'eternal' mean to you? That someone ALWAYS existed? How is it then, that we who have a hope in eternal life can even receive it? If we can receive eternal life, then it is not possible that it means 'always has existed'. In the beginning the Word was still completely IN God. When God SPOKE for the first time the 'Word' proceeded forth from God, and His Son was begotten. It is a spiritual 'birth' not physical. Begotten of the Father from BEFORE the worlds were formed DOES NOT mean 'always has been'. Begotten ACTUALLY denotes a beginning. And as you see from the verses provided, Jesus is the BEGINNING of all Creation.

My children have the same nose, eyes, lips, hair color and eye color as their dad. They all look JUST like him. They have the same body type, long torso, short legs, broad shoulders. They are 'little' Kris's! Are they Kris though? NO. They are the partial replica of him. (part of them is their mother). Jesus is the EXACT replica of His Father. (because He did not come from a union of two like my kids did) Is He the Father though? NO! He is a separate being. The 'Oneness' that they share is because of the GOD GIVEN attributes that Jesus has. There is NOTHING that Jesus is or has that His Father did not give Him. Including LIFE. John 5

How do you reconcile that The Father is NOT an entirely distinct and separate being from Jesus? Do you have any idea how many verses there are in the O&NT that separate the two? Almost 400.

You have said that one MUST acknowledge that Jesus is God with the Father to believe in Him unto Salvation. That it is impossible for Jesus to save us UNLESS He is God.

Who did JESUS Himself say He was?

Matt 16:16. And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

He said MY Father. HIS Father revealed it to him!! Not flesh and blood but the Father HIMSELF revealed to Peter that Jesus was the SON of God.

That is just ONE out of nearly 400 passages that not only separates the Father from the Son, but CALLS the Father 'God' and DOES NOT call Jesus 'God'.

God Bless

[ March 26, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ]

 

hrhema,

Unfourtunately most SDA's no longer agree with this truth.

Sadly, the SDA church was infiltrated by Trinity teachings just shortly after the death of Ellen White. And after the last of the original pioneers were dead, they officiated this doctrine into the statement of required beliefs.

For the sake of being called 'orthodox'.

Sad.

I'm glad to see that we agree on something.

You came across as really harsh at first. Now I see that you have fervency, just like me. I respect that.

33 years huh? I'm not even that old! That's awesome.

It is strange to me that people can study for as long as some have, and still stay in the same place, with the same beliefs, and the same doctrines, when they aren't provable from Scripture.

When I ponder their sad state, I can but think of one thing. Eyes to see and ears to hear. Jesus said Himself, they do not see me because of their own blindness, and they do not hear because of their own deafness. They HAVE ears and eyes, but they are wearing self made blinders and earplugs. (paraphrase)

"Who do you say that I am?"

YOU are the SON of the living GOD.

"Flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but MY FATHER in Heaven has revealed this to you"

That is how the conversation went.

It is TRUTH.

Why do people turn aside to fables? Because they have not received a LOVE for the TRUTH.

I love the TRUTH. With all that is in me.

God Bless

 

Ben,

I can't help but point out how wrong you are. The SDA church was founded by people who DID NOT believe in the trinity. I have even posted the original statement of faith not only here but also at COG7. Did you see it? They were NOT trinitarian to begin with.

I find it interesting that your 'mark' of a cult being that it is NOT trinitarian, is also the 'mark' of what the CATHOLIC CHURCH decided was what makes a church 'orthodox' or not. Interesting STILL, that ALL the churches who BELIEVE in the trinity are NOT being fully separated from the CC, and ARE not truly protestant AT ALL! The Trinity doctrine was NOT believed by the Apostles. They saw Jesus as the SON OF GOD. They saw The Father as the ONE True, Almighty, MOST HIGH God. They saw the Holy Spirit as the ACTUAL prescence of God with them.

Have you never noticed that when Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to the Apostles that He said "I will send the promise OF MY FATHER upon you"?

There is only ONE God. Jesus is His Son. God dwells in man through His OWN Spirit. The Spirit of God, is not a separate being apart from God. The Spirit of God is the omnipresence of God. He is in all and ALL in ALL.

The doctrine of the devil is one that DENIES the Father and the Son.

The Trinity.

It denies the ACTUAL, LITERAL, Fatherhood, and Sonship of God and Jesus.

There is ONE God, the Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, Jehovah's Salvation. The Lamb of God.

God Bless

 

Going on MY reasoning? You aren't serious! How would 'my' reasoning lead someone to think that they can no longer believe in God just because an apostate church does? My point has obviously eluded you! The point is that the doctrine of the Trinity is NOT a straight exegesis of text, it is a DEVELOPED doctrine that 'has a few' verses to support it. Strange that one of the 'few' that support it is highly questioned and debated as an addition (Johanine comma). My reasoning tells ME to look to the BIBLE as my first, middle, and last rule when studying. My point is, that the CC is using a doctrine that is NOT solidly foundational in Scripture as a 'mark' of an orthodox church. NOW, if they were using something like 'ackowledge that Jesus is the Son of God' as their 'mark' then I WOULD TOTALLY ACCEPT THAT. But the trinity doctrine is NOT solid enough to use as a judgment on ALL people as to whether or not they should be 'cut off from Christ'.

And YOU look at the Catholic Church and tell me what TRUTH there is in it. For real. You think that because the Mormons are wrong on some points that EVERYTHING that they believe is wrong? What about our friends at the COG7? Are THEY a cult too? This is a BAD rule to go by. Who came up with these rules? hmmmm

And that is TOTALLY true! But the trinity is not, and neither does that statement PROVE a trinity. That statement does more for MY beliefs than for a trinity. Jesus is the EXPRESS IMAGE of the invisible God (His Father), so by saying that seeing Jesus was seeing the Father makes COMPLETE sense! Does that mean to you that Jesus IS the Father?

That was Bob. And may I add that he provided no documentation to the claims he made.

Are you sure about that? Have you been studying EGW Ben?

That statement of Faith that I provided in the COG7 and here, was WRITTEN by EGW and the other Pioneers of the SDA church. It is DECIDEDLY anti trinitarian. It supports the ONE God of the Bible, and His SON, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit as NOT a separate person, but as the Spirit that is both of God and Jesus.

God Bless

 

So you think that from one day to the next Jesus' mood doesn't change? So from the first century to now, He hasn't had a single emotion? That makes SOOOO MUCH SENSE!!!! Sheesh. Let's just SEE how blasphemous I am....

Phil 2: 5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Seems to me that I am SUPPOSED to have the SAME MIND as Christ. Who DIDN'T think that it was BLASPHEMOUS to be equal with God.

Also, could you please show WHERE all of what you said is in the Bible? You posted 2 verses in that whole paragraph and then a bunch of your own personal judgment. What I would be greatly interested in, is seeing WHERE in the Bible you get your ideas.

Again, you just rattled off about 5 different doctrines that ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE!!!! Could you go point by point and PROVE from the Bible all of what you just said? Do you HONESTLY think that by my believing that Jesus is the SON of God, (uh, you know like what that pesky Bible says) that I have LOST my salvation?????

You are totally right, and unless you would care to show otherwise, no one will BE saved and receive eternal life until JESUS comes back and awakes all the dead saints and changes all the living ones.

Obviously.

Right you are!

Prove it.

Prove that too.

Who is Christ? Really? My bible says He is the SON of God. Begotten of God. Proceeded forth FROM God. That is a BEGINNING.

Now if you had stopped there we could have remained in agreement. But alas, you could not.

So explain John 3:16. HOW could God send His ONLY Begotten Son into the world, if He wasn't begotten UNTIL He sent Him into the world?

Duh.

I never said that. And why do you find it necessary to tell people they sound JW or Mormon or CC or SDA or any other denomination? What is the purpose of that exactly?

Of course it does. I never said that Christ was NOT the Creator. He was just as much a part of the Creation of the world as God was. God Created the worlds BY and FOR Jesus. (I said that).

How could I give a conditional answer?
I have answered this already. Jesus is the SON of God. The Image of the Invisible God. The EXPRESS Image of God. The Son of the Most High God. So yes or no? NO. Jesus Christ is NOT God. You disagree? Show me just ONE verse where Jesus SAID 'I am God'. Just one.

Actually, that passage doesn't say that at all! He didn't claim to be God in that passage. Let's see what He DID claim to be:
Also, let's get some context here!!
24. Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than ALL; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30. I and my Father are one.
31. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33. The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35. If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37. If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
40. And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.
41. And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.
42. And many believed on him there.

SON of God is what He claimed. The JEWS said that He was saying that He was God. NOT HIM.

Try again.

God Bless

 

Well then, that is just your opinion that you are imposing on that text because it doesn't say that, it says the same YESTERDAY. I WAS the same yesterday, as I am today, and will be tomorrow (God willing). Jesus is the same yesterday, as He was on that day, and He will be forever. Tomorrow doesn't really exist. When the next day gets here it is now 'today' so in all actuality and relitivity, tomorrow is a 'metaphor' for 'forever'. That verse does not say that He didn't have a beginning. It says that He has not, and will not change.

Prove it.

No, it is more than just John 1:1.

I agree. Just like the Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever does not say that Jesus had no beginning. My statement is an opinion based on many texts not just John 1:1.

Are you stating that begotten doesn't mean begotten when it pertains to Christ? As far as I can see, that is eisigesis, and not a valid statement. The Bible makes no statement that when Jesus is called begotten that it means anything other than 'begotten'. Just like all the so and so begat so and so in the Lineage books. Do you really want me to show you all the places in there that state that 'begotten' denotes the beginning of ALL those people?

Actually, the Bible SAYS that He has preimminence over all creation, and that was one of the points I made. The statement of Him being firstborn of all creation is one of the attributes that give Him the preimminence. (Coll 1:15-19)

And THAT is exactly MY point. The Word WAS God. After CAREFUL study and exegesis (because I was not looking to learn this when I was studying, I was trying to PROVE the trinity in my study) I came to the conclusion that the Word was IN God, and HAD NOT proceeded forth from Him, until God SPOKE (the Word).

Ok, YOU said, "It's a problem I don't see a way to resolve if God the Father and Jesus are thought of as two entirely distinct and separate beings." WHY do you think that I shouldn't believe that?

Ok, so then what do you do with all the verses that state that God and Jesus are separate and distinct? You didn't answer the question. "God in 3 persons", where is THAT in the Bible? Isn't that from a CREED?????

Ok, again, you didn't answer the question. IS IT TRUE, that you MUST believe that Jesus IS God to be saved? Is it TRUE that you MUST believe it?

The Father is the Most High God. Jesus is NOT the Most High God. He is the SON of the Most High God. The point of that verse is that AGAIN Jesus calls HIMSELF the SON of God. NOT GOD.

Were you here when the 'One verse wonders' thread was going on? Is that all you got?

NOPE. Jesus is not omniscient. He doesn't know when He is coming back.
Jesus is not 'God'. Therefore, there is no problem with There being ONE God, and ONE Son of God. They are not 'both' God(s).
It is the Trinity that makes 3 Gods. GOD the Father (that's ONE) GOD the Son (that's TWO) and GOD the Holy Spirit (that's THREE). That is trithiesm, a form of polythiesm.

NOT One God.

God Bless