Trinity or no trinity?

Ok, we all see what DHK says that Jesus said, what does the BIBLE say that Jesus said?

John 10: 36. Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Who are you going to believe?

I'm going with the Bible!

God Bless

 

hrhema,

EXCELLENT points!

Absolute TRUTH!

Beautifully Simple, Simply Beautiful!

God Bless

 

Then what does the Bible say?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

This was the real charge of blasphemy first stated: that thou being a man makest thyself God. They knew exactly what He meant. Don't you?
DHK [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I know exactly what He meant because HE SAID EXACTLY WHAT HE MEANT!!!!!!!!!!

You are wrong.

Demonstrably.

Jesus SAID:
'I am the SON OF GOD' in response to the accusation that He was saying that He WAS God.

He answered the question FOR ME.

You asked if Jesus is God....

Jesus said. "I am the SON of God"

You can't get around this DHK. So quit tryin'

God Bless

 

Armando,

What you just stated sounds more like the Oneness doctrine than the trinity.

God Bless

 

Ok, so then YES you do think of the word 'begotten' differently when referring to Jesus. Good. So do I. That is WHY I believe that Jesus is NOT as old as God. Because He was begotten BEFORE He was physically begotten in a woman.

No, I don't think that His beginning was in Mary. That is very illogical. And based on the rest of scripture wholly impossible.

Exactly. Before God spoke and the Word proceeded forth from the Father, He was still IN God. NOT a separate and distinct person. Like with children. It is even noted in the Bible that Isaiac took part in the covenant that Abraham because Isaic was 'in his fathers loins'. Jesus was 'in His Father' before He proceeded forth from Him. It was THEN that He was begotten, when God SPOKE and the Word proceeded forth from the Father. NOW, He is the Word incarnate, the Word made flesh, the Image of the invisible God. That is why it says WAS God, not IS God.
I challenge you, if you truly believe that is what that verse means to find that statement in the Bible elsewhere. That the Word IS God.

If you are trying to insinuate that I meant that there is a verse or verses that ACTUALLY say 'God and Jesus are separate and distinct', you are AGAIN being antagonistic. But if you aren't (I'm willing to give you the benifit of the doubt) I will entertain your request and do your homework for you.
1 Thess 3:11. Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.12. And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you: 13. To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
2 Thess 2: 13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Timothy 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
Titus 1:1. Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2. In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3. But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; 4. To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
John 20:28. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.29. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 30. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:31. But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Acts 7:55. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56. And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58. And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60. And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
Rom 8:35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Cor 8:6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
Col 1:10. That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11. Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Mal 2:10. Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
Mark 12:29. And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
John 8: 42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Rom 3: 29. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30. Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

That's funny because I thought you believed that Jesus was the SAME yesterday, today and forever. If He DID NOT KNOW something, and NOW He does, then HE HAS CHANGED. hmmmm

I know? Actually what I have always been taught, and I have been Baptist, Catholic, Breathren Pentecostal, Independent Fundamental Baptist, and Non Denominational, is that WITHIN the Trinity of the "one God" are THREE distinct, individual PERSONS who MAKE UP the ONE God.

THAT is THREE GODS!

It is even IN the statement of faith of EVERY denomination that believes the trinity.

GOD the Father, GOD the Son, GOD the Holy Spirit.

THAT is THREE GodS.

God Bless

 

I disagree with this statement. Woman was created as a helper comparable or suitable for man. They were both created in God's image. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not trying to instigate anything here, but women ARE subordinate to men. IF they are married. We are to be in submission to our husbands, and our husbands are to honor us AS the weaker vessel. This is just Bible Neal. Don't let the womens rights movement infiltrate your mind. We ARE NOT equal. I don't have a problem with this because it is the Will of God in Christ Jesus concerning me. I am submitted to that Will.

Do you see the Godhead that way? That they are 3 distinct persons but are of one essense?

WOW. I'm glad you pointed that verse out. Let's not look at it. I don't think anyone here wants to know what that verse says. It DOES NOT say that Jesus has always been. hrhema might want to know though. hmmmm. If you want to know hrhema let me know.

You've got to be kidding me. What do you think this verse is saying? MINE says something COMPLETELY different. IN two versions it says something different.
King James
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
American Standard
Romans 9:5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Now let's look at the statement that in the NKJV says:

'who is over all, the eternally blessed God'.

KJV and AS are the same in that statement.

"who is over all"

The difference is this:

"God blessed for ever"

There is a HUGE difference in what each of those states! ONE is from the original, the other is a CLEAR mistranslation of the text.

HERE is what the original says:

|2316| God
|2128| blessed
|1519| to
|3588| the
|0165| ages.

SO in the NKJV they are taking a FAR stretch of the original to get 'the eternally blessed God'!

In the KJV and AS we see a statement. If we take out the statement 'is over all' and read what it is REALLY saying:

Christ [as concerning the flesh] WHO [is over all] God blessed forever.

NOW:

Christ who God blessed forever

It is interesting that the NKJV contorted that verse to say something that it CLEARLY does NOT say.

- King James
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
- American Standard
who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped,
-Literal Original
|3739| who
|1722| in
|9999| {the}
|3444| form
|2316| of God
|5225| subsisting,
|3756| not
|0725| robbery
|2233| thought
|9999| {it}
|1511| to be
|2470| equal
|2316| with God,

We see a general clarity on this verse by comparison, that Jesus was IN THE FORM of God. It does not say that Jesus IS God.

"huparcho"
to begin under (quietly), i.e. come into existence (be present or at hand); expletively, to exist (as copula or subordinate to an adjective, participle, adverb or preposition, or as auxil. to principal (verb):

SOOOO, if we look at the construct of that sentence we will see that the word that is translated 'being' is supported by the preposition 'in the form of' and therefore takes the meaning 'to exist'. So the AS version is more accurate than the KJV (surprise surprise).

What I found most interesting is that the word that is translated 'form' in all four examples is this:
"morphe"
(through the idea of adjustment of parts); shape; figuratively, nature:
Interesting that the english equivalent to this word is 'morph' which means 'to be transformed into the shape or image'. Which TOTALLY AGREES with THIS:
Col 1: 15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
2 Cor 4: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Hebrews 1: 3. Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4. Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

"isos"
(through the idea of seeming); similar (in amount and kind):

What this verse's meaning REALLY comes down to is the WAY in which Jesus considered Himself equal to God. Using scripture to interpret scripture we see that the WAY that He considered Himself equal was this:

Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal [isos] with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Interesting that Jesus did not see them as 'equal' on EVERY aspect. The Father judges NO man, but Jesus is the judge of all. hmmm

Well firstly you have a false premise here. I am not saying that Jesus is 'created'. I am saying that He proceeded forth FROM God.
As to v 10 and 11 go there is NO problem with people bowing the knee and confessing that Jesus Christ is Lord. HE IS!! There is NO problem in worshipping Jesus because HE is the Image of the Invisible God, the Son of God, whom ALL power has been given to by God. Judgment has been given to Him. He has the preeminence over all creation. Why? Because He was the FIRST BORN of all creation AND the First fruit of the DEAD. So in LIFE He was first, and in being raised from death He is the first. He is the FIRST of everything.

What do I do with it? Read it! I believe that it says EXACTLY what it says. In the beginning (of what? hmmm?) was the WORD, and the WORD was WITH God, and WAS God.(not IS God) He is no longer 'in' God. He proceeded forth from God, 'in the beginning' when God SPOKE. Same in the beginning that Moses penned telling us WHEN the Word proceeded forth from God. Prior to there being any physical 'lights' God said "let there be light" and the LIGHT that He 'let' out was the Light of men, and the Life of ALL things. It was Jesus.

That's not all it says though is it Neal?
"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Firstly, "Lord" there is 'kurios' which is a title of authority, SUPREME authority. What did JESUS say He had????
Matt 28:18. And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
It is ALSO necessary to believe that GOD raised Him from the dead. Did He raise HIMSELF????

Sadly, there is much support for many of the false doctrines that have infiltrated the church. Very sad. There is 'ample' support according to Ben that you go right to heaven when you die. He used the accounts of Enoch, Elijah, and Moses (and of course the all encompasing parable of the rich man and lazarus) to say that we will ALL go right to heaven when we die. NOW, you probably believe that you will. SO does MORE THAN half of Christiandom. Would you say that 2 translations, a resurrection and a parable are solid enough to prove something that over 85 other verses disagree with?

Seriously, I know that has nothing to do with the trinity per se but the logic behind it is the same. You have a doctrine here that you, and many others, for some strange reason seem to think that you MUST believe in (wonder who told you that) and you have like 4 verses to back it up.

Whereas I have read almost 400 verses that say that either God is God, or the Father is God and that Jesus Christ, the Word, is the SON of God, and that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God or the Spirit of Christ.

So we have trinitarians saying:

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

And the Bible saying

1 Cor 8:6. But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And HOW are we in Them?

1 Cor 12:13. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So do I!! That is HOW I came upon this truth, because I DO NOT think I have it all figured out. Do you? If you think you do then you DON'T and the truth is trying to find you, but you must be open to it.

Praise God! I do NOT know everything, nor do I ever for even one second think that I have Him all figured out. But I DO know what He has shown me, and what He has shown me is what the 1 Cor verses I just quoted say. NOT a trinity.

It is clear that a false doctrine has been able to be shown to you by twisting and contorting scripture until there is no semblance of the truth left.

You are willing to believe something on the basis of a notion? Wouldn't you rather believe something that is SO STRONGLY founded in scripture that there is NO way that it can be refuted? Something that is restated and told over and over and believed by EVERY Apostle, who btw SAW Jesus in the flesh? Something that was the general belief until the CC took control of the masses!

If you TRULY believe in the trinity then PLEASE show me with so much proof that it will be SO obvious beyond any shadow of a doubt that flesh and blood has not revealed it to you, but the Word of God, and I will believe.

God Bless
Kelly

 

3AM, I thought the same thing.

When he ended it with the apostles believed in the Trinity, I had to take a second look.

Maybe he really sees the 'Oneness' of God and doesn't see what he sees.

MEE </font>[/QUOTE]It's amazing huh. His tone seemed very soft hearted, it is very likely that God is showing him truth, and he just doesn't know what to call it!

God Bless

 

DHK,

Were you actually planning to make a point, or just quote other people's commentaries?

Sheesh