End Times

I have again quoted the same statement. What do you mean by saying that Jesus was the first born. Are you saying that Jesus was a created being? I don't necessarily want a quote from Scripture; I know where it is found. I want to know what you believe by stating this. Do you believe that Jesus, as "first born" was a created being? Yes or No?
DHK

 

I have again quoted the same statement. What do you mean by saying that Jesus was the first born. Are you saying that Jesus was a created being? I don't necessarily want a quote from Scripture; I know where it is found. I want to know what you believe by stating this. Do you believe that Jesus, as "first born" was a created being? Yes or No?
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I have no idea what you're asking here, Jesus was God in the flesh, firstborn/firstfruit refers to the sequences of the resurrections, Jesus/church/Israel.


Jesus as "Firstborn" was "Firstfruit" resurrected to "eternal life", all those resurrected before him, Lazarus, little girl, etc, all died again.

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn,

Ro 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, (Jesus) the lump is also holy:

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[ May 27, 2006, 02:20 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

DHK,

Thank you once again for exposing another case of the inadequate recognition and understanding of Scripture that Me4Him refuses to acknowledge at any time, the first of which stands out like a sore thumb, i.e., that "Jesus will personally raise up and gather together every/all believers from earth to heaven on the last day ... one of the days after great tribulation”. John 6:38-40; Mark 13:24,27.

Me4Him never defends his position directly from Scripture other than by reminding me that knowledge of the truth depends on looking at
his superior insight into extensive charts. Inordinately obsessed by his claim to “dividing the Trinity” (explained by these charts), you
expose another twist of truth at the expense of his limited embrace of God’s revelation...based on a single word as “firstborn or firstfruit”.

Just as he skirts the issue with me, so he does the same with you by stating he “doesn’t know what you are asking”. I am fed up with his
slippery mode of eisegesis and denial of various truths we hold in high regard. In this case he evades the truth that, just as Jesus was the
“firstborn" in resurrecting the dead; so 144,000
Jews will be the “firstborn of the living, surviving Bride of the Lamb by taking them on the clouds of heaven” and presenting them to the
Ancient of Days on the day of His Coronation and Glory and of the glorification and Union of all Believers since Adam.

Jesus rescues the Firstfruit and appears with all the Saints united with Jesus ON THE SAME
12-HOUR DAY to “destroy earth's destroyers as well as those disobedient to the Gospel”! John 17:22-24; Rev.11:18; Dan.7:13-14; 2 Th.1:8-10.

Please note Me4Him has Christ coming WITH the saints on the first Day of Trumpets and FOR the saints on the first Day of Tabernacles
(separated by two weeks on the Hebrew calendar of the same year) and uses this as the false basis for separating Rapture and Resurrection
of ALL the saints by 7 years instead of by just
an hour or so on the same day between "noon
and twilight"! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-7.

In his “comprehensive” understanding of the Firstborn/Firstfruit, Me4Him does not recognize or understand the 144,000 being “Raptured to
heaven” as the "Firstfruit of the Living" on the very Day the rest of the living meet their loved ones at the Synagogue in the Sky!

DHK, I’m glad to meet such a patient, but persistent moderator.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

I think you do have an idea what I am asking, because it was a very simple question.
I'll ask it again.
Yes or No. Was Jesus (as "firstborn") a created being? It is not a difficult question. The J.W.'s have no problem with it. They answer yes, he was. And they use the exact same verse you do.
DHK

 

I think you do have an idea what I am asking, because it was a very simple question.
I'll ask it again.
Yes or No. Was Jesus (as "firstborn") a created being? It is not a difficult question. The J.W.'s have no problem with it. They answer yes, he was. And they use the exact same verse you do.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]I have no idea what other people mean with their words, interpretations/meaning vary according to the "mind set" of the "Speaker" and the "Hearer", The same problem Jesus had with the Jews.

Just what you mean by "created being", I have no idea, Jesus is a third part of the "Trinity", consisting of God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, these three have been together since the "Beginning" of God, who has no beginning.

Jesus was the "physical manifestation" of God in the world, "Created" (is that the word you're looking for) in a "Body of flesh".

Mt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

He also appeared in the OT as the "Angel of the Lord/God".

If you think people don't have trouble understanding the trinity just read the confusion about the rapture/trib/resurrection, the trinity explains the scriptures.

 

Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

How is Jesus the firstborn of every creature?
His is Jesus the firstborn from the dead?

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

What does this phrase mean to you: "beginning of the creation of God?"

 

Colossians 1:15-18 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

How is Jesus the firstborn of every creature?
His is Jesus the firstborn from the dead?

Revelation 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

What does this phrase mean to you: "beginning of the creation of God?" </font>[/QUOTE]Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.


3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Does that answer your question, I don't know where you're coming from so I don't know where to go with my answer.

You'll have to understand the "Feast" (Le 23) and their correlation to the NT, to understand these two questions. (See Chart above)

 

Got "bogged down" on a Calvinist website.

We both understand this, for this is tribulation. All during this time we are in heaven.

Seven years is the time of Jacob's trouble, so we know this is the time of God's wrath. What happens with the Trumpets and the Vials will be continuous. The One Day, is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the Tribulation, 7 years.

If you are saying the "seals" are a "prevue", or set-up to begin the tribulation. then yes I agree, as the 1st Trumpet begins in the 1st "year". The 7 "seals" informs of the 7 "years". The 144,000 are sealed in the beginning of the tribulation.

Our catching up is not shown in the Old Testament, and it is not shown after our rapture. It was not foretold, that is if we believe Christ Jesus in heaven, for certain things were hidden. I Thessalonians proves my point Mel, for we are not appointed to His wrath, and you will not accept scripture that by seal 6 man knows about God's wrath cause by the time we read "preview" we know it is the tribulation, the Wrath of God.

The plan is for us to be in heaven with Christ for those 7 years.

But Jesus could not tell what was hidden from man. He has further word to we today, and we know what He told Paul, for Paul tells us what Christ revealed to Him. We will be caught up, and will not be in the Wrath to come. We therefore will be raised before that very "Last Day" Jesus talks about. How do we know this. Jesus tells us in John 6:39-40, "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." We did not see Jesus while He was on earth, and we will not be on earth when He comes back to this earth, but we will see him from our position in Him, when all will See Him. We are in Him, and this was not known, or understood until after Damascus Road.

Please start your John reference in verse 36 to see who will be raised on the "last day". Those that have seen Him.

In Mark 13:27, All that "saw" Him were to watch for the "last day", and this agrees with the John reference above.

In Matthew 16:27 we know after the second coming when all shall see Him, awards will be given.

Revelation 11:18 is in sync with all scripture, after His wrath is come, the dead will be judged as they are raised also. Those prophets of old have a significant place in the "kingdom". We see the "saints" of prophecy in Daniel 7:27, "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him." Rewards will be given to those that are alive (not the dead to be judged), the prophets of all ages, the saints as shown in Daniel above, and those saved under the "everlasting gospel" dispensations, before Abraham, and after Rapture. We see no mention here of we in the Body of Christ, for the book of Revelation and Daniel are of Prophecy.

Revelation 22:12. Let's add verse 10 and 11 to verse 12 for full meaning. "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book[/b]: for the time is at hand.
11. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. This is a book of prophecy, and cannot then apply to we today. We are not or Works, and we are not in ourselves able to remain unjust, filthy, righteous, or holy. We are in Christ, held by the Spirit.

I believe the "tribes" you speak of are the "tribes" of Israel, for they are the "tribes" that will inherit the earth. All through the Bible the word "tribe" denotes only the "tribes" of Israel. The Book of Revelation is of prophecy, and prophecy is about Israel, and those of the earth. We are of the "heavenlies", and not counted in the "tribes" of Israel.

Revelation 11:18 is explained above.

You fail to take into account men knew of God's "wrath" before the event of the 1st Trumpet, and we are told we will not see the "wrath" of God.

Jesus in Luke speaks of the "tribulation", and Paul just spoke of the rapture in chapter 4 in Thessalonians, and says it and the tribulation will come "as a thief in the night". [quote

He does this while the Jews “beg to escape and prevail to stand before the Son of Man”. All who prevail are “kept alive”. Rev.16:15; Matt.24:30-31; I Thess.5:2-3; Luke 21:34-36; Luke 17:33.

[/quote]Again, of the rapture, and Tribulation.

Amen no one entering the Temple.

As pointed out the rapture is followed by the tribulation which comes a "thief in the night".

In verse7 we see we raptured, and then we are looking at tribulation.

Our resurrection is in the rapture over a thousand years before verse 5. These are the other saved in other dispensations.

Don't you believe him?

The 7th Trumpet is taking us into Enternity, and "we don't know what happens in Eternity.

Paul speaks to the Rapture, with event of the Tribulation beginning thereafter.

 

A "Rapture" is not a "Resurrection".

Resurrection, is to be "back on earth alive", in the rapture, no one is "back on earth alive", they leave the earth.

How does anyone expect to understand the scripture when they don't know if they are "coming or going"???

 

ituttut,

Jesus placed the signs and calamities of Seal Six, including God’s wrath, ON ONE DAY AFTER the great tribulation of 1260 days. You contradict His teaching by placing Seal Six seven years BEFORE the end of the great tribulation.

Quote:
______________________________________________
Seven years is the time of Jacob's trouble, so we know this is the time of God's wrath.
What happens with the Trumpets and the Vials will be continuous. The One Day is the Day of the Lord. The Day of the Lord begins at the beginning of the 7-year Tribulation.
______________________________________________

The position stated by the Lord Jesus Christ is the position we must take or carry the guilt of heresy. Jesus is coming on one 12-Hour Day of God’s wrath on the day Trump 7 sounds that His wrath “has come”. Its sound does NOT take us into eternity and the “first resurrection” does NOT occur 1000 years after Christ comes as you claim: “Our resurrection is in the rapture over a thousand years before Rev.20:5". [This statement is absolutely false, IMO].

Quote:
________________________________________________
Mel, You fail to take into account that men knew of God's "wrath" before the event of the 1st Trumpet, and we are told we will not see the
"wrath" of God. [You falsely assume that Seal Six occurs before the first Trumpet instead of “after the tribulation”. You have given no evidence whatsoever that six of the trumpets follow the 7th seal; these six trumpets go on
open display in the Court's Tribunal for about
a half hour during the 7th Seal].
_______________________________________________
ituttut, you claim that only Pre-Trib saints are “not appointed to God’s wrath”. I accept God’s word that Trib-Saints also are “not appointed to God’s wrath”. Wrath occurs “on one of the days AFTER the great tribulation because the 7th Trumpet is about to sound as of day #1260. Rev.10:6-7. God’s 12-Hour DAY of wrath begins with SIGNS “after the great tribulation” and that wrath is executed during the HOUR
of Trial on that same day when “no unbeliever can escape unless he begs to escape”! Luke 21:36; I Thess.5:2-3. We will escape as “we are not of the night”.

Quote from ituttut:
______________________________________________
As pointed out the rapture is followed by the tribulation which comes as a "thief in the night ... Paul says the tribulation will come `as a thief in the night’".
______________________________________________
This claim is absolutely false. Jesus and Revelation state He is coming “as a thief” to
destroy the armies at Armageddon AFTER the tribulation; AFTER the 7th Trumpet sounds that God’s wrath has come”. Instead, you say the tribulation itself will come "as a thief in the night". This contradicts the “word of the Lord” that He is coming as a thief to destroy armies gathered to Armageddon. Rev.16:15-16; Rev.11:18.

You contradict Revelation that the First Resurrection occurs before the Millennium and
that Jesus is coming “after the tribulation to reward ALL the saints”. Matt.16:27.
_______________________________________________
Quotes by ituttut:
Our resurrection is in the rapture over a thousand years before verse 5 (Rev.20:5).
Rewards will be given to those that are alive (not the dead to be judged), the prophets
of all ages, the saints as shown in Daniel above, and those saved under the "everlasting
gospel" dispensations, before Abraham, and after Rapture. We see no mention here of we in the Body of Christ, for the book of Revelation and Daniel are of Prophecy.
_______________________________________________
Sorry, I cannot abide your “division of saints” with only Pentecost to Pre-Trib saints included in the Body of Christ; while you exclude the Saints of Revelation because, as you falsely claim, they belong to “Prophecy” and Pre-Trib saints do not!

Quote:
________________________________________________
In Matthew 16:27 we know after the second coming when “all shall SEE Him”, awards will be given.
________________________________________________
That, my friend, is your most evasive attempt to “divide” God’s truth so that those who
have SEEN Christ come (at a pre-trib rapture) are not the same as those who “will SEE
Him coming (after the tribulation) with His rewards. Your explanation tries to “cut it”
two opposite ways for those who SEE Him coming in power and great glory!

You fail at explaining how Pre-Tribs “saw” what Trib-Saints must wait 7 years to “SEE”:

Quote:
______________________________________________
“In Mark 13:27, All that `SAW’ Him were to watch for the `last day’, and this agrees with John’s reference above that “He will raise up every believer on the `last day’”. We know after the second coming when all shall see Him, awards will be given”.
_______________________________________________

This is so complex, twisted and convoluted that I refuse to countenance any more or your manipulations of His word. My friend, you and I have exhausted any possibility of agreement. I must honor God’s word that those who wait to
“see” and those who “see” Him coming refers to all mankind at once!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

A very good question Me4Him. We'll apply it where we will. We are told we will meet Him in the air, "dead or remaining in our 'same' bodies", we in the Body of Christ.

I believe you fail to see your salvation. If we are in the Body of Christ, and Jesus was resurrected, will we not be also? To be in His Body, we must go to the Cross, and that is where we are "buried" with Him, and I know He arose, so I arise. We call this the resurrection of the saved from the dead alive to be caught up to Him in the air.
Christian faith, ituttut

 

We do see it differently Mel.

If we believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation, we cannot be of heresy of the Word of God, as to our salvation. It won't make any difference if you are right, or I am right on this issue, for He will do what He will do. He controls the events, not us. We study to make ourselves approved as we work out our own salvation.

The six seals precede the 7 trumpets. If they do not point to the 7 trumpets, how do we even know about them. The six seals set-up what is shown in the 7 trumpets.

But if you are in the tribulation you are in the time of the "wrath" of God for the 7th trumpet starts you to eternity by way of the "kingdom to come", the millennium.

Revelation 10:6-7 tells us there will be no more delay at the sounding of the 7th trumpet. It is the "mystery" of God that is finished, not His wrath, for there are yet 7 vials of His wrath to come. So where do we place them. As they are of the "wrath of God", they must fit into tribulation.

By your reckoning you have just dismissed anyone knowing some awful things have happened, and there has been tribulation going on. We see the "as a thief" in chapter 3:3, which will start the tribulation. Chapter 16:15 is parenthetical here for us to understand the "vials" are running in the same time period as the Trumpets.

I can put up with Paul, so that is the reason I believe Damascus Road did happen, and it happened for a purpose. One is to let us know we are not appointed to the "wrath of God". That is the reason he "comforts" us in Thessalonians. Rapture, Tribulation, Christ comes to reign on the earth for a thousand years, then eternity.

But we know God is a God of division, so as to accomplish His will. Did He divide out Abraham?

In the "Body of Christ" we know tribulation is coming, and we won't be in it when it comes. I don't know about others, why they don't see this.

This is a complex problem, as you say. It is of much greater interest to others than I, for Revelation (other than being with Christ in heaven), doesn't apply to me or any that are in the Body of Christ.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

A very good question Me4Him. We'll apply it where we will. We are told we will meet Him in the air, "dead or remaining in our 'same' bodies", we in the Body of Christ.

I believe you fail to see your salvation. If we are in the Body of Christ, and Jesus was resurrected, will we not be also? To be in His Body, we must go to the Cross, and that is where we are "buried" with Him, and I know He arose, so I arise. We call this the resurrection of the saved from the dead alive to be caught up to Him in the air.
Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]That's my point, when we return to the earth with Jesus is the "First resurrection", not the second, the rapture is not "classified" as a resurrection by scripture or it would be refered to as a resurrection.

Every place the word resurrection is used, you'll find at least some of them "back on earth. alive". (Jerusalem)

Day of Christ/rapture, Saints leave the world.

Day of the Lord/First Resurrection, Saints return to the world.

Two different events, seven years, apart.

The proper definition of resurrection is not to come out of the ground, but to be "Back on earth" alive", regardless of where you're coming from, Ground, Sea, Hell or Heaven.

Any time you have two different words describing what you think is the same event, better take a closer look, odds are the events are as different as the words used to describe them.

I use/stay with the KJV.

 

That's my point, when we return to the earth with Jesus is the "First resurrection", not the second, the rapture is not "classified" as a resurrection by scripture or it would be refered to as a resurrection.

Every place the word resurrection is used, you'll find at least some of them "back on earth. alive". (Jerusalem)

Day of Christ/rapture, Saints leave the world.

Day of the Lord/First Resurrection, Saints return to the world.

Two different events, seven years, apart.

The proper definition of resurrection is not to come out of the ground, but to be "Back on earth" alive", regardless of where you're coming from, Ground, Sea, Hell or Heaven.

Any time you have two different words describing what you think is the same event, better take a closer look, odds are the events are as different as the words used to describe them.

I use/stay with the KJV.

 

ituttut,

The scripture you quote includes all the "dead in Christ" coming with Him and that includes the Trib-Martyrs who "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13.

Since Paul agrees with Jesus (John 6:38-40; I Thess.3:13) that all the Saints will come with Jesus, then on the last day He will RAISE UP every believer and gather the elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Any explanation of I Thess.4:13-14 and Mark 13:24,27 that does not allow "God to bring all the saints with Jesus" automatically contradicts God's revealed truth!

Read Paul's word more carefully and note He agrees with Jesus:

Quote:
We return with Christ for the 1st resurrection as prophesied. This fits perfectly with what I said. It seems your scenario will only fit if there is no resurrection of the "body". I Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I propose Paul means "we" who return with Christ includes Trib-Martys and the Two Witnesses who rise up to heaven on the Last Day to witness the Court of Seal Seven and the Verdict of the Angel of Fire "immediately after (within 3 1/2 days of the end of) the great tribulation"! At the first of three soundings of the 7th
Trumpet (Rev.11:15-17), Christ will be crowned; at the 2nd sounding (I Thess.4:16), He will resurrect the dead in Christ from earth to heaven where He awaits and at the 3rd sounding of this "great trumpet" (Matt.24:31), He will send the angels to complete the gathering of all the Saints to His Presence above.

Your following conclusion doesn't deny and, of course, doesn't even begin to acknowledge that Paul agrees with Jesus!! :thumbs:
Quote______________________________________________________________
The proper definition of resurrection is not to come out of the ground, but to be "Back on earth" alive", regardless of where you're coming from, Ground, Sea, Hell or Heaven.
______________________________________________________________

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Bless your heart Mel, you just can't see it. We in Christ cannot be seen in Revelation. We were raptured, and I Thessalonians 4:16-17 is not tied to your Revelation 14:13. Revelation is in prophecy future, of which we are not, other than already being in Christ Jesus forever.

Paul tells us he had a "dispensational" gospel given to him by Christ Jesus from heaven. That gospel is for us today, and it is in this "dispensation" that we are "taken up to Him", not the "dispensation" to come which is the "dispensation" that was revealed to John as God again deals personally with His Own, just as he promised.

Those raised in the 1st resurrection are all known from the beginning until the end, with exception of those (we) that were raised to be with Him forever as shown in I Thessalonians 4:16-17. Revelation 13 is specifically to those "… Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth…….."

Since Paul agrees with Jesus (John 6:38-40; I Thess.3:13) that all the Saints will come with Jesus, then on the last day He will RAISE UP every believer and gather the elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Any explanation of I Thess.4:13-14 and Mark 13:24,27 that does not allow "God to bring all the saints with Jesus" automatically contradicts God's revealed truth!

Read Paul's word more carefully and note He agrees with Jesus: [/quote]

Let's read it together, and see if you will not agree these are two separate events. The Mark reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering. Now prayerfully read I Thessalonians reference and notice it Is Christ, not the Angels that come. It is Christ Jesus that receives us. What Paul tells us was not told to any other "generation" in any other "dispensation". All are not in the Body of Christ. If they were God would have informed us from the beginning.


We return with Christ for the 1st resurrection as prophesied. This fits perfectly with what I said. It seems your scenario will only fit if there is no resurrection of the "body". I Thessalonians 4:16-17, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

I propose Paul means "we" who return with Christ includes Trib-Martys and the Two Witnesses who rise up to heaven on the Last Day to witness the Court of Seal Seven and the Verdict of the Angel of Fire "immediately after (within 3 1/2 days of the end of) the great tribulation"! At the first of three soundings of the 7th
Trumpet (Rev.11:15-17), Christ will be crowned; at the 2nd sounding (I Thess.4:16), He will resurrect the dead in Christ from earth to heaven where He awaits and at the 3rd sounding of this "great trumpet" (Matt.24:31), He will send the angels to complete the gathering of all the Saints to His Presence above.

These are not in the Body of Christ, for we are taken before that man of sin is revealed. I see we contradict Christ if we hold it possible for those in the Body of Christ will be allowed to go into the "tribulation period" for that would mean the Holy Spirit can be taken from us. Before the Body of Christ is known, yes this could happen, but we are told that it is God that has sealed us.


Your following conclusion doesn't deny and, of course, doesn't even begin to acknowledge that Paul agrees with Jesus!!

Paul agrees with Christ Jesus as He sits next to His Father in heaven.

Quote_____________________________________________ _________________
The proper definition of resurrection is not to come out of the ground, but to be "Back on earth" alive", regardless of where you're coming from, Ground, Sea, Hell or Heaven.
__________________________________________________ ____________


Resurrection is a "change" in our bodies which will happen as we that are alive are "caught up" to Him. These old bodies will be "given life" by His Spirit that is in us. Those bodies of earth will also be changed. [/quote]

 

ituttut,
Yes, let’s read the Scripture together to see why I "just do not get" your false teaching that makes Paul himself deny the word of the Lord IF "all the saints who come with Jesus do not include Trib-Martyrs"! I Thess.3:13 Your baseless theory is built on an assumption that the Prophecy of the Book of Revelation does NOT apply to all the Saints in the Body of Christ ... of which Trib-Martyrs are constituent members just as you and I today. Here is your false deduction:
Quote:
_____________________________________________________________________________
"Those raised in the 1st resurrection are all known from the beginning until the end, with exception of those (we) that were raised to be with Him forever as shown in I Thess.4: 16-17. Revelation 13 is specifically to those … Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth ……... I see we contradict Christ if we hold it possible for those in the Body of Christ will be allowed to go into the `tribulation period' for that would mean the Holy Spirit can be taken from us". ____________________________________________
Here you leave out the primary reference to the saints whom "God brings WITH Jesus from heaven ... the Dead in Christ" (I Thess.4:13-14) and that includes the Martyrs who "die in the Lord". Rev.14:13. You have not proved the "dead in Christ" during the tribulation are NOT members of the Body and Bride of Christ. You have only set up a "division" of Scripture that arbitrarily excludes us from the "first resurrection" that irrefutably includes the great tribulation martyrs!

Your next Quote is totally false: _____________________________________________________________________________
"The Mark reference speaks of Angels doing the gathering".
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You should have said the Matt.24:31 reference speaks of Angels completing the gathering that Jesus Himself starts in Mark 13:27. "The Son of Man will send (apostelei; 3rd person singular) the angels and He will gather (episunaξ?ei; 3rd person singular) the Elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven". Then the angels (episunaξousin; 3rd person plural) will gather these Elect out of the 4 winds from one end of heaven to the other". Matt.24:31. Please be accurate in quoting Scripture. This requires a knowledge of original Greek text!

Your conclusion is actually half CORRECT. Quote: ___________________________________________________________________________
"Prayerfully read I Thess reference and notice it Is Christ, not the Angels that come (gather) us. It is Christ Jesus that receives us".
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Half correct. Jesus both RAISES UP and GATHERS every Believer!! But only until the angels, who come WITH Christ, continue the gathering from the uttermost part of heaven unto the Synagogue in the Sky. 2 Thess.2:1. The Lord Jesus will "raise up every/all believers on the last day (John 6:38-40) and He will gather us from earth to heaven on one of the (3½) days after the 1260 days of the great tribulation have ended at the killing of the Two Witnesses.

Only "some must still taste death", Jesus said, "after they see God’s Kingdom Power having come" thru the Two Witnesses for 1260 days! That is why "no one but the Father kinows the exact day and the exact Hour". Mark 9:1. But not one believer is "appointed to God’s wrath" and that includes Trib-Survivors!! raise:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Do you have any members of your family, or friends in the Body of Christ that have died? Are they not "asleep" in Christ? You will meet them in the Air. Isn't this very comforting words knowing you will be with them in Christ, and taken before "tribulation" comes? Where are your comforting words for those in the Body of Christ?

Is not Jesus Christ the "first fruits" of our resurrection? Are we in or out of Christ? We are of the 1st resurrection, but not seen as are those (who are "kingdom" believers) also in the 1st resurrection that occurs later.

I Corinthians 15:23, says we go in our own order. Those in the Body of Christ will not go through the "tribulation". Only those not in His Body will do this, and if they make it through then they of resurrection, in the 1st resurrection of the saved, in their own order which holds true to prophetic scripture (Isaiah 9:7; 44:1-7) .

Then you, being expert in the original Greek language, know the translator's were correct in their renderings. Matthew and Mark, just as you and I, do not phrase exactly alike. Are you trying to show that one of them doesn't know what they are talking about? Since the Holy Spirit has a hand in writing His Word, He does not contradict. To not contradict, we know these verses must agree with Zechariah 12:10-14.

Please read with understanding what these verses say, and intend, of which you do not believe, viz. " And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other", Matthew 24:30-31. We see the same thing is shown to John in Revelation for tribes designate these to only be of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Revelation 7:1-4, "And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3. Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."

It is the angels that round up the "tribes", those of Israel. This is not we of the Body of Christ. Jesus tells us He came only for His own, and when He speaks while on earth it pertains to His people, and not we today. Your knowledge of scripture is lacking for you are confused by "man's" confusion in the languages. Remember the "tower of Babel"?

We need to read His Word, and believe it is His Word, and not what some wish to make it.

Agree if you are saying that it is Jesus Christ that is the "resurrection and the life", but He has those that will "gather" - Matthew 13:30.

Only "some must still taste death", Jesus said, "after they see God’s Kingdom Power having come" thru the Two Witnesses for 1260 days! That is why "no one but the Father kinows the exact day and the exact Hour". Mark 9:1. But not one believer is "appointed to God’s wrath" and that includes Trib-Survivors!! [unquote]

Mark 9:1 speaks to "Pentecost", for that is what the "kingdom" is to be like, but it was refused. Many saw the Power of the "kingdom".

Agree, not one believer in the Body of Christ today is appointed to His wrath. It seems your word, and the Word do not agree, at least this is what I find in Revelation 14:8 and on, as evidently not all will receive the Mark.

 

ituttut,
Quotes:
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Where are your comforting words for those in the Body of Christ?

We are of the 1st resurrection, but not seen as are those (who are "kingdom" believers) also in the 1st resurrection that occurs later.

Those in the Body of Christ will not go through the "tribulation".
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The dead in Christ (including Trib-Martyrs) will rise first and we who survive (including Trib-Survivors) will be caught up to meet them.

That is our comfort. There is no Scripture that states only Pre-Trib
saints are exempt from God's wrath. And there is no Scripture that
exempts Pre-Trib saints from great tribulation.

Your theories deny the "word of the Lord" that He will raise up every/
all believers on the last day and He will gather the elect from earth to heaven and He will send the angels to gather them out of the uttermost part of the heavens".


Anything less/other than that is heresy. And believe it or not, you actually admit that Trib-Martyrs take part in the "first resurrection". Each in
his own order does not mean two "last days" or two "last trumps" or two "first resurrections"! The order of resurrection was Christ first and then all who are in Christ on the Last Day. Those "of the earthly kingdom" who are saved during the Millennium will never die to begin with"!! :thumbs:

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

ituttut,
Quote:
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It is the angels that round up the "tribes", those of Israel. This is not we of the Body of Christ. We need to read His Word, and believe it is His Word, and not what some wish to make it.
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Once again, I remind you, be accurate in quoting Scripture!!!!!!!!

Jesus does not say the Angels will gather the "tribes of Israel from
earth to heaven". The Angels will "gather the elect OUT OF THE FOUR WINDS FROM the uttermost part of the HEAVENS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your statement distorts the truth by substituting the 12 tribes of the nation of Jews for "the Elect". You actually omit that Jesus will "gather all
believers from earth to heaven" as He promises in Mark 13:27!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are saying the Angels will "gather the Elect Jews only" and leave
the Tribulation Saints in their mortal bodies after facing God's wrath!!!!!!

Mel Miller www.lastday.net