You may know you are saved, because God says so in His Word.

Hi John,

Your assumption is that once you have the life of God (eternal life), you cannot fall from it or loose it.

This is an assumption that is not taught by any of the above passages, and it is a teaching that you assume because it's your tradition.

The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod believes and teaches that it is possible for a true believer to fall from faith, as Scripture itself soberly and repeatedly warns us:
1 Cor. 10:12
1 Pet. 5:8
2 Pet. 3:17
Heb. 2:1-3
3:12-19
6:4-8

Such warnings are intended for Christians who appear to be lacking a right understanding of the seriousness of their sin and of God’s judgment against sin, and who, therefore, are in danger of developing a false and proud "security" based not on God’s grace, but on their own works, self-righteousness, or freedom to "do as they please."

Cf. http://www.lcms.org/cic/salvtion.html

"In view of the Biblical teaching that the security of the believer depends on a living relationship with Christ (John 15:6), in view of the Bible's call to a life of holiness (1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14); in view of the clear teaching that a man may have his part taken out of the Book of Life (Revelation 22:19); and in view of the fact that one who believes for a while can fall away (Luke 8:13); The General Council of the Assemblies of God disapproves of the unconditional security position which holds that it is impossible for a person once saved to be lost." (This is what The Assemblies of God has declared itself regarding the security of the believer in its bylaws Article VIII, Section 1)

God bless,

Carson

 

Sorry about not responding sooner, but I've been busy.

Now, let's look at 1 John:
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye

What exactly did John write?

1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Evidently there are those who claim to be 'saved' but actually are not. John calls these people liars. How is one to know if someone who claims to be saved is a liar or not, John says that it is by our actions. If we keep His commandments and confess our sins, then we are not a liar. If we don't, then when we say we are saved we lie.

2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

Here John is talking about a group who everyone thought was saved, but they weren't. In time, by their actions, they revealed that they were liars. A perfect example of a group of believers who never really had salvation to begin with.

John never said anything about their beliefs being any different than those of the elect. John says by actions we know. Evidently these actions even reveal themselves after someone claims to be saved (see 2:19).

These are the things John wrote so that we might know if we are liars or not.

 

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

 

That is a mighty big "IF"

 

That is a mighty big "IF"</font>[/QUOTE]There's nothing mighty about it, it simply states that a person who is in Christ will be a new creation and thus a person who was never made new, is not in Christ.

 

Exactly, yet how are we to know that we are a new creation?

 

A changed heart is a good indicator of a new creature in Christ. One thing that you can be sure of is that new is by definition not old and so if there is never any change there is nothing new.

 

That's the problem. How do you decide you have a changed heart?

 

That's the problem. How do you decide you have a changed heart?</font>[/QUOTE]Surely you can tell the difference between the old and the new?

 

Yes, but not outside the Biblical perspective. (ie 1 John). There are alot of 'if' 'then' statements that we may judge our fruits by.

The Bible never said that the liars would be aware of their lies. As a matter of fact, Jesus gives the impression that they won't:

"Not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven"

 

If = first class condition = since

If I walk in the rain without my umbrella, I will get wet. Duh! LOL

If anyone is in Christ (and he is = since a man is in Christ), he is a new creation.

PS: Walk in awareness of your new life in Christ.

 

How does any of this negate the verses from 1 John that I quoted?

 

How does any of this negate the verses from 1 John that I quoted?</font>[/QUOTE]The things which you listed are evidence of a new creature in Christ, things that a new creature does. The things that a man does do not put him in Christ, they simply show that he is already in Christ.

"A perfect example of a group of believers who never really had salvation to begin with."

Given your conclusion it would be better to call them so-called believers, since not having salvation to begin with they were shown not to be believers. There is a difference between claiming to believe and genuinely having faith.

 

There is a difference between claiming to believe and genuinely having faith.

Any of us have the 'perfect perception' to be able to tell the difference? Jeus warns us to judge by fruits, not by feelings.

Mormons are a prime example of what can happen to a person if one relies on feelings and not fruits. If feelings can lead someone away from Christ, then feelings must not be a way to tell the truth.

As I said earlier, where in the Bible does it say that those who don't really believe actually know that they don't really believe? There is no distinction made between the "so-called believers" and true believers until the "so-called believers" are revealed by their actions.

According to Jesus there will be "so-called believers" who will go to their grave believing that they were true believers...

"Not all who say to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..."

Given your conclusion it would be better to call them so-called believers

They weren't my conclusions, they were John's.

[ September 14, 2002, 09:34 AM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

When we first accept Jesus in our lives.When we confess our sins to God. When we say "Yes Jesus I cannot do it! I cannot do it my way!" I think it is when we put away the old habits of the flesh, and start doing things Gods way.
I think our hearts are convicted. We know whats right and whats wrong. The bible says we do not need a teacher. That the Spirit will live in us and teach us all that we need to know. That the Spirit goes to the Father, and hears all that He says, and comes and whispers in our ears all that He hears.
When we pray to God, and read His word, and love our neighbor. When we trust God to lead us in our walk daily. When we come to Him as a child who goes to its Father.
When we become more dependant on God to be in control and lead us.
When we make mistakes. He is there to pick us up. This is how you know.

Sherrie

[ September 14, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]

 

Sherrie,

Your words remind me of the parable of the seeds. In three of the four hearts the words: "Yes Jesus I cannot do it! I cannot do it my way!" are spoken. I disagree that at this time we know what's right and what's wrong. We don't have perfect understanding, we just know that there is something wrong and it needs correcting.

But then where do you go? According to Jesus the wise person then applies the Bible's teachings, thereby growing in faith. The more we know of what the Bible says, the more we can judge the source of beliefs. We judge by the results of the beliefs. If they are in opposition to what the Bible says, then they are not of God.

That the Spirit will live in us and teach us all that we need to know. That the Spirit goes to the Father, and hears all that He says, and comes and whispers in our ears all that He hears.

So you are saying that there is no need for the Bible? There are many spirits in this world that are not of God. Satan isn't called the Great Deceiver for nothing. What our heart tells us needs to be judged. If the heart was always right, then there would be no divorce and the world would be a much better place.

When we become more dependant on God to be in control and lead us. When we make mistakes. He is there to pick us up. This is how you know.


The Bible says otherwise. As I said before, evidently the liars would believe what you are saying too.

 

1 John is a letter about love. God first loving us which brings the response of our loving others - this through Jesus Christ coming in the flesh. Those who walk in darkness are not walking in love. This brings spiritual death. John mentions the word love a zillion times in this letter. So we can conclude that the thrust of this letter is about love and the changes love brings to a believer's life in Christ.

It will be evident to us if some one is walking in darkness because they do not love others. This is the sin that brings spiritual death - the carnal mind.

But let's not become fruit inspectors of anothers walk, but rather examine our own faith = God pouring out His love toward us through the faith of Jesus Christ Who has come in the flesh.

1 John 4:15-17

"Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God ABIDES in him, and he in God. And we have come to KNOW and have believed the love with God HAS for us. God is love, and the one who ABIDES in love ABIDES in God and God ABIDES in him. By THIS, love is perfected with us, that we may have CONFIDENCE in the day of judgment; because as He IS, so also are WE in this world."

The many "ifs" in chapter 13 of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians shows how God first loves us (as John writes in his first letter) and this will also become evident in a believer's life so also are we in this world (as John writes in his first letter).

The carnal mind looks upon the external things (what one sees); the new creation - spiritual mind - looks upon the heart (the unseen).

Eph. 3:16 - 19

"I pray that out of His glorious riches He may strengthen you with POWER through His Spirit in your INNER BEING, so that Christ may dwell in your HEARTS through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in LOVE, may have POWER, together will all the saints, to grasp how wide AND long AND high AND deep is the LOVE of Christ, and to know this LOVE that surpasses knowledge - that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullnes of God."

The carnal mind sees sin and death and judgment every where. The spiritual mind sees love.

Peace, Diane