You may know you are saved, because God says so in His Word.

But let's not become fruit inspectors of anothers walk

Is this what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5? How are we to expell the immoral brother, if we don't first inspect his fruit to see if it is evil?

but rather examine our own faith = God pouring out His love toward us through the faith of Jesus Christ Who has come in the flesh.

How do we examine our own faith? According to the Bible we examine it by our own fruits.

Diane,

With all this talk about 'love', I have a question: Does God love those who are doomed to hell? If so, then why wouldn't He love liars and still let them lie?

The carnal mind looks upon the external things (what one sees); the new creation - spiritual mind - looks upon the heart (the unseen).

According to Jesus, that which is unseen (the spiritual) has a very definite impact on what is seen (the external). According to Jesus we can see the spiritual by the results it has upon the external.

Either you can believe that Jesus is wrong, and therefore a liar, or you can believe what Jesus said is truth. If you believe that Jesus spoke truth, you can then either heed the warning and apply it or ignore the warning and suffer the possible results.

 

Is this what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5? How are we to expell the immoral brother, if we don't first inspect his fruit to see if it is evil?
------------------------------------------------
Well, I guess you can go and expel all the immoral brothers, Tuor. Just remember to take the log out of your own eye before taking out the mote in another's.
================================================
How do we examine our own faith? According to the Bible we examine it by our own fruits.
================================================
Paul said he didn't even judge himself, but God is the judge. 1 Cor 4

================================================
With all this talk about 'love', I have a question: Does God love those who are doomed to hell? If so, then why wouldn't He love liars and still let them lie?

================================================

If it's about lying, then we're all sunk.

Let God be true and every man a liar. Rom 3:4

It isn't for me to say who will ascend or descend.

And ((((((Who))))) does 'all this talk about love?' Did ((((I )))) make this up?

-------------------------------------------------

According to Jesus, that which is unseen (the spiritual) has a very definite impact on what is seen (the external). According to Jesus we can see the spiritual by the results it has upon the external.

================================================

Yes.

Jesus said to the woman caught in adultry. "Where are your accusers? Neither do (((((I))))))) accuse you. His acceptance and unconditional love and kindness causes one to repent (change one's mind).

================================================
Either you can believe that Jesus is wrong, and therefore a liar, or you can believe what Jesus said is truth. If you believe that Jesus spoke truth, you can then either heed the warning and apply it or ignore the warning and suffer the possible results.

================================================

Ha, Jesus IS THE TRUTH!

Like King David, I throw myself upon God's mercy. Gee, if it were up to YOU I'd really be in trouble. LOL

Peace, Diane

 

Well, I guess you can go and expel all the immoral brothers, Tuor. Just remember to take the log out of your own eye before taking out the mote in another's.

You didn't answer my question. How are we to expell the immoral brother, if we do not judge at all? By your last comment, am I correct in believing that you believe Paul is in disagreement with Jesus on this issue?

Paul said he didn't even judge himself, but God is the judge. 1 Cor 4

I would ask that you keep Paul's comments in context. He is talking about his teachings. Time bore out the fact that Paul was teaching God's message.

You must believe Paul to be quite the hypocrite.

If it's about lying, then we're all sunk.

Remember, I am talking about the 'liar' that John describes in 1 John, not the world's definition.

Let God be true and every man a liar. Rom 3:4

Boy howdy!!! Please keep things in context. It is a very dangerous thing taking things out of context and using them as half truths. What was Paul talking about in Romans 3? Was it the same kind of liar as John is talking about in 1 John?

Jesus said to the woman caught in adultry. "Where are your accusers? Neither do (((((I))))))) accuse you. His acceptance and unconditional love and kindness causes one to repent (change one's mind).

What were Jesus' last words to this woman? I believe it was "go and sin no more". Repenting is much more than just changing one's mind, it has to do with asking for forgiveness and acknowledging that we sinned.

Why did you choose this verse? Do you believe it to be saying that in actuality Jesus says it is OK to sin?

Ha, Jesus IS THE TRUTH!

True, but not neccessarily how we define him. If we choose to define him outside of how the Bible defines him, then the Jesus we believe in is False, otherwise known as an antichrist.

[ September 14, 2002, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Tuor, you're talking about sin - I'm talking about love. Apples and oranges, friend.

There's only One God and Father of All. The law of death and sin has been swalled up in LIFE. You can put that in any context that you like.

Peace, Diane

 

Tuor, you're talking about sin - I'm talking about love. Apples and oranges, friend

No, I am talking about what the Bible actually says, you are talking about what you think it should say.

Are you saying that your definition of love outways what 1 John says about liars?

 

No, I am talking about what the Bible actually says, you are talking about what you think it should say.

Are you saying that your definition of love outways what 1 John says about liars?
================================================
I think that the body of scripture speaking of love far outweighs sin and judgement and doom and gloom.

I tried to convince you of this - I didn't - so does that mean that I'm wrong? If so, then you haven't convinced me either.

Since you've begun to accuse me as anti-christ because I don't believe exactly as you through another interpretation of scripture, I think I'll bow out now. As I do NOT want this important thread to turn into a fight. This would devalue the gospel of grace.

You have to know where I come from, whereas I lift up Jesus Christ's love. You're looking at me and I'm looking at Him. We really do see things differently.

Tuor, your warnings have no affect, perfect love casts out fear.

Peace, Diane

 

Since you've begun to accuse me as anti-christ because I don't believe exactly as you through another interpretation of scripture, I think I'll bow out now.

Come now Diane, "I don't believe exactly as you through another interpretation", what kind of cop out is that? What happened when I asked you to put your quotes into context? You blew it off. I'm sorry, but it is impossible to have a serious discussion with someone about Christianity, if the other person isn't going to give the Bible the respect it deserves.

Paul gives us a warning about false teachers in 2 Corinthians 11.

Tuor, your warnings have no affect, perfect love casts out fear.

Since your definition of 'perfect love' isn't from the Bible, I'd have to say a better understanding of your feelings is :"ignorance is bliss"

 

Dear Tuor,

Copping out? I’m just being practical, my friend. I gave it my best shot. Even Jesus said to shake the dust from your shoes and move on when someone will not hear what the disciples preached.

But I’ll give it one more try, just for you.

I said:

Well, I guess you can go and expel all the immoral brothers, Tuor. Just remember to take the log out of your own eye before taking out the mote in another's.

You said:

You didn't answer my question. How are we to expell the immoral brother, if we do not judge at all? By your last comment, am I correct in believing that you believe Paul is in disagreement with Jesus on this issue?

I quote:

2 Cor. 2:5-11 – it’s about forgiveness not expelling immoral brothers.

I said:

Paul said he didn't even judge himself, but God is the judge. 1 Cor 4

You said:

I would ask that you keep Paul's comments in context. He is talking about his teachings. Time bore out the fact that Paul was teaching God's message.

You must believe Paul to be quite the hypocrite.

I quote:

1 Cor 4:5 – it’s about judging nothing before the appointed time and waiting until the Lord comes. It is He who will bring light in the darkness and expose the motives of men.

I said:

If it's about lying, then we're all sunk.

And then you said:

Remember, I am talking about the 'liar' that John describes in 1 John, not the world's definition.

I say:

I’ve already answered this several times. Those who walk in darkness walk without love. If you say you love God and don’t love your brother you are a liar. It’s about love, Tuor.

I said:

Let God be true and every man a liar. Rom 3:4

I add:

What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? NOT AT ALL! Rom 3:3

I said:

Jesus said to the woman caught in adultery. "Where are your accusers? Neither do (((((I))))))) accuse you. His acceptance and unconditional love and kindness causes one to repent (change one's mind).

You said:

What were Jesus' last words to this woman? I believe it was "go and sin no more". Repenting is much more than just changing one's mind, it has to do with asking for forgiveness and acknowledging that we sinned.

I say:

The scripture didn’t say she asked for forgiveness or that she admitted what she did. He forgave her and loved her – this keeps one from sin.

The law of sin and death has meaning in so far as it prohibits us from doing things that we are inclined to do or tells us to do things we are not inclined to do. So they make taxes a law, because they're pretty sure they couldn't run the government on free-will donations. But they don't make voting a law because enough people are inclined to vote.

So when there's a law that says: Do not kill your neighbor, it is directed at people who, unless told otherwise, would kill their neighbor!

People who are in love don't need a law that says: "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Faithfulness is what they want to do. If faithfulness is not in their hearts, then making a law requiring it might keep them from acting out their adulterous desires, but the presence of such desires is the real problem, as Jesus mentioned.

So I see the law of sin and death as automatically and universally creating hypocrisy, because the law of sin and death causes people to "act" good without actually *being* good. If they really *are* good, the law is superfluous.

You said:

Why did you choose this verse? Do you believe it to be saying that in actuality Jesus says it is OK to sin?

I say:

I don’t think that I said that once. You talk about sin, I talk about love. His kindness leads us to repentence.

I said:

Ha, Jesus IS THE TRUTH!

You said:

True, but not neccessarily how we define him. If we choose to define him outside of how the Bible defines him, then the Jesus we believe in is False, otherwise known as an antichrist.

I say:

Who is anti-christ? One who believes that Jesus hasn’t come in the flesh. I didn’t say that once. My choice is one based on Christ’s love for me. He loved me and accepted me (and still does) just as I am. Warts and all.

You talk about fruit, Tuor. Do you think that fear brings fruit – maybe strange fruit. But not the kind that loves people into the Kingdom by lifting up Jesus Christ.

What is the fruit of believing that the mass of people (the 'unsaved' ) are going to spend eternity in a fiery inferno of agony?

What good does it do you?

Does that belief enable you to go through life with a more loving and tolerant attitude towards the failings of others?

Does it enable you to express God's love to all you meet?

Does that belief inspire you to greater loving devotion to God?

Does that belief cause you to trust in Him completely for the deliverance of your soul?
Does that belief mean that your witness of the gospel to the unsaved is accepted thankfully by the hearers?

The answer is probably 'NO' to all of those.

There is no fruit in that belief - it is a lie that denies Jesus His rightful role as the Savior of All - it denies people real faith as they are never totally free of the doubt that, ultimately, they might fail the test.

Jesus said that HE was the way the truth the life and nobody came to the Father except through Him.

Not your belief, not your faith, not your religion, not your bible memorizing, not your 'holiness', not your reputation, not your denomination, not your degree in Greek, not your grasp of abstruse theology, not your good deeds, not your witnessing, not your sobriety, not your fasting, not your prayers, not any of your religious exercises and self sacrifice - NONE of those will get you into 'heaven'.

NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY HIM - His life, His truth, He is the Way (not our various 'ways' that we use to garner a good reputation) - we can only stand back and be grateful.

It’s His kindness that brings about a change in a person – I could lie a thousand times today, 999 times tomorrow, 998 the day after that – His love doesn’t change or depend upon what I do, but on what He does and HAS done through Christ. Funny, I just can’t lie when I look at this wonderful forgiving and gracious God of mine. Can you hear this?

Jesus said, “If I be lifted up, I will draw All men to me.” I lift Him up. If that’s ignorant bliss, then so be it.

Peace, Diane

 

Diane,

Thanks for the reply. I think I now see what you believe.

The scripture didn’t say she asked for forgiveness or that she admitted what she did. He forgave her and loved her – this keeps one from sin.

You actually believe that Jesus didn't think that she was sinning in her actions?

Here are Jesus' final words to her:

What was the condemnation? Was Jesus talking about salvation? No. Jesus was talking about a physical death, not a spiritual. Jesus never said that sin is no longer sin.

In Matthew 15:18-20 Jesus said

Can you find anywhere where Jesus says sin is no longer sin?

He forgave her and loved her – this keeps one from sin.

In other words, you are saying that since Jesus forgave her of her former sin, it would be impossible for her sins to be considered sin?

Here is what 1 John 1:8-10 says about sin and Christians:

Even with Paul, if what you said about Christians no longer sinning is true, then it would be inconsistant with what Paul wrote in

1 Corinthians 5.

Verse 1-2 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father's wife.

Notice that Paul is upset that such sin is being allowed in the church. Paul did not say that since this person is a child of God that although this sin would be considered sin among the unsaved, don't put this guy down. Paul did not say that the church should just love this guy and accept the behavior because it is not sinful.

verse 5 I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Here Paul actually says that one should expell the brother who is living in rebellion to God. Why would Paul say such a thing? Didn't Paul know about love?

Paul knew about love, true love. The reason why is because this guy's soul was in danger. If the flesh that he was displaying wasn't destroyed, it would take over his heart. If this happened, then the man wouldn't be saved on the day of the Lord.

verse 6-8 Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough? Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Here Paul warns of the consequences for allowing sin to exist in the local body of Christ. The sin will work its way through the body as leaven works its way through dough. If we allow the leaven of the world into the body of christ, what was different and special will become like the rest of the world.

What else could Paul be saying here?

2 Cor. 2:5-11 – it’s about forgiveness not expelling immoral brothers

This is talking about forgiving someone after they have been restored. We are not to remember their sins once they are repented and stopped sinning. It is a common thing for people to be 'holier than thou' and look poorly upon those who were at one time doing things that are socially unacceptable.

So I see the law of sin and death as automatically and universally creating hypocrisy, because the law of sin and death causes people to "act" good without actually *being* good.

So you believe that if someone is tempted to do something that the person is not good? You believe that just because we sin at all we are hypocrits? Do you not see the difference between living a lifestlye that is in open rebellion to God as opposed to committing a sin from time to time?

Do you think that fear brings fruit – maybe strange fruit. But not the kind that loves people into the Kingdom by lifting up Jesus Christ.

God judges us by our hearts. If we are doing things out of fear, then there is a problem. What makes you think that I am espousing that we only follow God's commands out of fear of damnation? You are correct that I do fear something. I fear what is happening to the body of Christ as the leavening of the world works its way through churches world wide.

What is the fruit of believing that the mass of people (the 'unsaved' ) are going to spend eternity in a fiery inferno of agony?

There is no fruit in that. The fact is that the Bible tells us that the unsaved will end up in the pit of hell. How much of the description is metaphore and how much is actual fire and brimstone I don't know.

Be that as it may, the reason why I follow Christ is not out of fear, it is out of love. Perhaps not by the definition of love that you believe, but love all the same.

Does that belief mean that your witness of the gospel to the unsaved is accepted thankfully by the hearers?

This is God's domain, not mine. According to the Bible, those who are God's will respond to God's message. The Bible also says that only a few will find the way to heaven. If too many people like what you are preaching, then perhaps that is a sign that you are not preaching the road to heaven.

NO MAN COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY HIM - His life, His truth, He is the Way

If you do not know your Bible, then how are you to know what His way actually is? There are many spirits out there that tell people what to do in their hearts, but not all are from God.

His love doesn’t change or depend upon what I do, but on what He does and HAS done through Christ.

I never said it did. All I am saying is that the Bible says that if one says they know Jesus then certain things can be seen, not the other way around.

Funny, I just can’t lie when I look at this wonderful forgiving and gracious God of mine. Can you hear this?

Yes, I hear you, but just because you believe it doesn't make it so, just as if I believe it that it doesn't make it so. If we were to judge liars by what they actually believed, then no sincere believer in anything would be a liar. I hope you you can hear what I am saying.

[ September 15, 2002, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]

 

Tuor,
I didn’t mean to suggest that you didn’t love.

Luke 9:51-56

And it came to pass, when the time was come that he (Jesus) should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem. And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw [this], they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, ((((((YE KNOW NOT WHAT MANNER OF SPIRIT YE ARE OF. For the Son of man is not come to DESTROY men's lives, but to SAVE [them].))))))) And they went to another village.

Oh how brothers and sisters call down fire from heaven upon each other. Jesus says today, “You know not what manner of spirit you are of. I have come to save, not destroy.

Many times we interpret God's character on the basis of what we think or what we've experienced in our own lives. But here's a little principle to keep in mind: never interpret God by circumstances. Always interpret circumstances in the light of what you know the unchangeable character of God to be.

Matthew 9:9-13: "And as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man, called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, 'Follow Me!' And he rose, and followed Him.

"And it happened that as He was reclining at the table in the house, behold many tax-gatherers and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples.

"And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, 'why is your Teacher eating with the tax-gatherers and sinners?'

"But when He heard this, He said, 'It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. But go and learn what this means, 'I desire compassion, and not sacrifice,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Now Jesus Christ did some pretty unusual things. First of all, He called Matthew, a hated tax collector, to be His disciple. Not only did He call him, He went to eat at his house!

Think about Jesus, the holiest man who ever graced a human body, eating with tax collectors and notorious sinners. That would be today's equivalent of Jesus sharing a pizza with drug dealers and pimps! But Jesus gained this reputation for being the friend of sinners, and the Bible says they came to eat with Him. He didn't have to persuade them to come, they just enjoyed being near Him.

Jesus absolutely hated sin, but isn't it interesting that He was relaxed in the presence of sinners? This is almost impossible for us to imagine! The "norm" for Christians has too often been to totally withdraw from the world for fear of it wearing us down or overwhelming us. We've repeated that behavior over and over again in church history, even to the point where believers have totally withdrawn themselves from the world in order to be free of its stain. Strangely enough, Jesus Christ (who is in you, by the way!) never had to do that.

Jesus' response to humanity was to show compassion. Everything He did in the Gospels was to exemplify the Father (John 14:9) and to serve the needs of humanity. This is portrayed in John 13:3-5 when Jesus washed the disciples' feet during Passover. The disciples had a hard time grasping what Jesus was doing when He took off His outer garment (which basically meant He stripped down to His underwear!), girded Himself with a towel, filled a basin with water, knelt down and started washing their feet.

Peter wouldn't let Jesus touch his feet because the only people who ever touched feet in that culture were slaves! By washing Peter's feet Jesus wasn't just teaching servanthood and total loss of reputation - He was fully identifying Himself with the lowest human beings on the social ladder.

Jesus knelt down and held in his hands one of the dirtiest and most unmentionable parts of a human being - then He washed it clean. Many people probably thought, "Holy men don't touch feet! There's no way anybody's ever going to think He's the Son of God now!"

Jesus knew He was blowing their neat concept of holiness, yet He simply acted with compassion in response to a human need. Jesus Himself reminded us in Matthew 9:13: "I desire compassion and not sacrifice..." Jesus was always compassionate - and always holy. But how was He able to sit at the same table with tax-collectors without fear of compromising His holiness? How was He able to sit relaxed among sinners without falling apart?

Jesus could sit with sinners, hating their sin, but not be threatened by them as people. He could have compassion on them, and not compromise on truth - because He was secure! And Jesus drew that security from the things He knew about Himself:

Jesus knew He was from the Father, and His identity was in the Father. He said, "...the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner." (John 5:19) If your identity is in anything other than the Father, you will be insecure. If your identity is in your ministry, your church, your job, your abilities and talents, or even in your doctrine - I can promise your security will be threatened.
Did doctrine matter to Jesus Christ? of course it did! But somehow He was different from the "doctrinal killers" called the Pharisees. Jesus believed the same Bible verses they believed, but with one remarkable difference: the Pharisees and Sadducees knew about God, but Jesus knew the Father. He was not frightened or threatened by the thought of losing anything here on earth, because His security came from knowing that He Himself was in the Father.

Jesus knew that the Father had given all things into His hands. He was here to die on a cross and save the human race from eternal damnation. He never let that thought stray from His mind. He had a purpose and a sense of being.

Tuor, we are the people God has commissioned and ordained to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world. We're the ones He has chosen to pray His Kingdom come and the will of God to be done on earth as it is in heaven.

As far as Paul’s writings go – many are filled with great power and lift up our precious Lord, for sure – but he sure wasn’t Jesus.

Peace, Diane

 

Diane,

Oh how brothers and sisters call down fire from heaven upon each other. Jesus says today, “You know not what manner of spirit you are of. I have come to save, not destroy.


Jesus wasn't talking about arguing between each other. Jesus was talking about killing people. We have the right to disagree with people, but we don't have the right to kill them for disagreeing with us.

First of all, He called Matthew, a hated tax collector, to be His disciple. Not only did He call him, He went to eat at his house!

But Jesus gained this reputation for being the friend of sinners, and the Bible says they came to eat with Him. He didn't have to persuade them to come, they just enjoyed being near Him.

You seem to be confusing the issue here. It isn't about cloistering ourselves from the world, it is accepting sin in our lives and the lives of fellow Christians.

Jesus absolutely hated sin, but isn't it interesting that He was relaxed in the presence of sinners?

Everyone is a sinner. Although he was comfortable bringing the Good News to people no matter what their position, Jesus never accepted sin. I am glad to see you believe this too.

But somehow He was different from the "doctrinal killers" called the Pharisees.

The problem with the Pharisees was that they were white washed tombs. They did not love. They were all rules and no love. This does not negate the fact that those who love God will also follow His commands. As Jesus says in Matthew 5:20

He was not frightened or threatened by the thought of losing anything here on earth, because His security came from knowing that He Himself was in the Father.

I agree that Jesus was not frightened or threatened, but that does not mean he didn't get angry when people made a mockery of what his Father intended. Look at Matthew 21:12-13

Was Jesus being insecure when he went on this rampage?

As far as Paul’s writings go – many are filled with great power and lift up our precious Lord, for sure – but he sure wasn’t Jesus.

Diane, what do you think Jesus meant when he said in Matthew 7:13

or Matthew 7:21

It seems to me that Jesus is saying that not everyone is going to heaven. Verse 13 even seems to be saying that most people aren't going to heaven. Remember, this isn't Paul talking, it is Jesus himself.

 

Friend Tuor, you missed my point.

He is God.

All things are possible with Him.

His is Love.

He restores.

He loves the sinner.

He calms the storm.

He comforts.

He is compassionate.

He saves.

He goes after the lost sheep.

He the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

He never leaves us or forsakes us.

He is Almighty God, Everlasting Father, Wonderful Counselor, Prince of Peace.

He is faithful.

He is patient.

He is kind.

He is not rude.

He is not counting men's sins against them.

All things are His on heaven and earth.

Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess His Lordship.

His judgments are just.

He corrects.

And yes, He is a consuming fire. Just as Moses saw Him in the burning bush and the bush was not consumed, He will consume all unrighteousness because His objective is to restore and reconcile His creation to Himself.

So you see, we do not agree. But I only hope to give some a glimpse of His glorious majesty.

Here's an eye-opener for you: Did you know that God created evil? He said I create good and I create evil. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Don't you think He is in control, Tuor.

Peace, Diane

 

Don't you think He is in control, Tuor.

I know God is in control. God created everything for His purpose.

But that does not mean that everyone is going to heaven. That does not mean that the Bible is incorrect when it warnings about what fruits are of God and what fruits are of the world (Satan).

 

Isaiah 54:16-17

See it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc; no weapon forged agaist you will prevail, and you will refute every tongue that accuses. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and this is their vindication from me, declares the LORD.

God is in even more control than you can imagine, Tuor.

Peace, Diane

 

I'm sorry, but you're gonna have to explain that one. I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

 

“no weapon forged against you will prevail” – interesting isn’t it? Satan has no power except it be given to him by God. He IS all powerful isn’t He?

Tuor you are saying that God’s plan is to redeem mankind through His son Jesus Christ and that those who receive His forgiveness receive eternal life in Heaven and that those who reject Jesus as Savior remain condemned by their sin.

Have you not read in Luke 14:-32? "For which of you, wanting to build a tower, is not first seated to calculate the expense, to see if he has the wherewithal?-- 29 lest at some time, he laying a foundation and not being strong enough to finish up, all those beholding should begin to scoff at him, 30 saying that `This man begins building and is not strong enough to finish up!' 31 "Or what king, going to engage another king in battle, will not, being seated, first plan to see if he is able to meet, with ten thousand, him who is coming against him with twenty thousand? 32 Otherwise, surely, at his being still at a distance, he, dispatching an embassy, is asking the terms of peace."

I believe that God has considered every aspect of His plan to redeem the whole human race. He sat down (so to speak) and calculated to see if it could be done before He set things in action. If He fails He will be the laughingstock of the universe. For they will say that He began to redeem but Satan was much more crafty and wise than He. God has His thousands but Satan his billions. But I believe that God will succeed.

Almighty God, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth is working all things out according to His will which He devised before the foundations of the earth were laid. Do you think that your will or Satan’s will could thwart God’s plan to save the world through Jesus Christ?

What a MIGHTY God He is!!!!!

It is finished!!!! This is the simplicity of the gospel. Believing that Satan could possibly take even one soul from God is just plain wrong.

Peace, Diane

 

I believe that God has considered every aspect of His plan to redeem the whole human race. He sat down (so to speak) and calculated to see if it could be done before He set things in action.

How do you know for a fact that God's plan is to "His plan to redeem the whole human race"? If it was, then I'd agree with you.

If He fails He will be the laughingstock of the universe.

God can't fail. It is my position that God never intended to redeem the entire human race. If it were His intention, then we'd all be robots. We would have no choice in the matter. He would be forcing everyone to accept Him. Dictatorship is not God's plan. We all have a choice.

For they will say that He began to redeem but Satan was much more crafty and wise than He.

Who is to blame if God tells us the right direction, but most decide to not listen to God?

God has His thousands but Satan his billions.

Satan won't have worshipper, Satan will have prison mates. Satan is not the head of hell, Satan will be cast into hell.

God isn't concerned with quantity, God is concerned with quality. Who can be trusted with a great responsibility?

But I believe that God will succeed.

So do I.

Believing that Satan could possibly take even one soul from God is just plain wrong.

This is true. The elect can't be taken out of God's hand.

John3v13,

Is this thread about "once saved always saved", or is it just another anti-Catholic thread?

 

Is this thread about "once saved always saved", or is it just another anti-Catholic thread?

Dear Tuor,

We may disagree, but I'm not anti anyone. Remember, I'm the one who is trusting that God saves all people.

Oh and what a feast it will be at His banquet table!

Diane

PS: I'll try and respond to your above post this evening.

 

That question was directed to John3v36.

As to the feast...

Was Jesus in error when he gave the parable of the wedding feast?

Link to Matthew 22:1-14

Was Jesus incorrect when he said "For many are called, but few are chosen"?

[ September 16, 2002, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: Tuor ]