End Times

Ituttut,

18. "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." Mel I find this very comforting that we will not have to go through the great tribulation that is to come after we are gone.

Where does Paul state that believers do not have to go through the great
tribulation? He taught that we must suffer "much tribulation". :wavey:

 

Ituttut,

Your following words are more accusatory than any I have ever received:

Quote:

"And my answer is you must be wrong Mel. You force contradiction.

Matthew and Mark references must say the say thing. In not understanding Mark you are saying Matthew is wrong. Matthew 24:31 says He will send His angels and they will do the gathering. Mark 13:27 must agree, but you have inserted He, and this changes the meaning of scripture, forcing conflicting ideas. Both of these must agree, or you are saying the Holy Spirit contradicts, which He does not.

The third person singular sends the angels, and they (third person plural) do the gathering. Don't you see the fallacy of you misuse of scripture? You have Christ Jesus rounding up everybody he wants. But from your view He is not able to do this so He decides then to send His angels.
_____________________________________________________________

Why do you claim Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 must say the same
thing? Who "gathers the elect from the earth"? Who gathers them from
all the extremities of the heavens? Do you think Jesus was unaware that the Elect of Mark 13:27 are the same elect of Matt.24:31?!

If I have indeed made Jesus and Mark contradict Matthew, as you charge, how do you know the Elect are Jews only? Jesus did not say they are Jews only!!

How can you keep claiming the one "taken" refers to a Pre-Trib gathering when Jesus states the one is taken "after the great tribulation"? In your
scheme, you ADD that the "one taken" occurs before the tribulation!!!

How can you claim I inserted "HE" in Mark 13:27 when Jesus alone stated that "HE WILL SEND THE ANGELS AND HE WILL GATHER THE ELECT"?

I consider your rejection of the word of the Lord most unworthy ... by not once explaining why He mentioned three times over that He came to do "His Father's will by not losing a single believer and by raising up every believer, all believers, ON THE LAST DAY". John 6:38-40.

Enough said! Shalom!
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Mel Miller said:

IMHO Mel Miller rejects the word of the Lord 'day' to
one limited definition: the 24-hour day.

Here is what my Dictionary says about DAY:

http://dictionary.reference.com/

11 entries found for day.
day Audio pronunciation of "day" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d)
n.

1. The period of light between dawn and nightfall; the interval from sunrise to sunset.
2.
1. The 24-hour period during which the earth completes one rotation on its axis.
2. The period during which a celestial body makes a similar rotation.
3. Abbr. D One of the numbered 24-hour periods into which a week, month, or year is divided.
4. The portion of a 24-hour period that is devoted to work, school, or business: an eight-hour day; a sale that lasted for three days.
5. A 24-hour period or a portion of it that is reserved for a certain activity: a day of rest.
6.
1. A specific, characteristic period in one's lifetime: In Grandmother's day, skirts were long.
2. A period of opportunity or prominence: Every defendant is entitled to a day in court. That child will have her day.
7. A period of time in history; an era: We studied the tactics used
in Napoleon's day. the day of computer science is well upon us.
8. days Period of life or activity: The sick cat's days will soon be over.


adj.

1. Of or relating to the day.
2. Working during the day: the day nurse.
3. Occurring before nightfall: a day hike.


To limit the definiton of 'day' as used throughout the Bible
to the 1. meaning above (24-hours) defintion seems a reproach

In general, I think for Prophecies of the Bible a
better ONE USE ONLY defintion would be

6.2. 2. A period of opportunity or prominence:
( Every defendant is entitled to a day in court. That child will have her day.)

2Pe 3:8-10 (KJV1611 Edition):
But (beloued) bee not ignorant of this one thing,
that one day is with the Lord as a thousand yeeres,
and a thousand yeeres as one day.
9 The Lord is not slacke cocerning his promise (as some men
count slacknesse) but is long-suffring to vs-ward, not willing
that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord wil come as a thiefe in the night,
in the which the heauens shall passe away with a great noise,
and the Elements shall melt with feruent heate, the earth also
and the works that are therin shalbe burnt vp.

This seems to be clear, the day of the Lord is AT LEAST 1,000 YEARS
Long.

Brother Ituttut's explanation of the Word of God should not, cannot
be logically called "rejection of the word of the Lord"

 

GREAT TRIBULATION is a period of time
MUCH TRIBULATION is many problems

Great Tribulation is measured in months
Much Tribulation is measured in pain & heartaches

Mel Miller:
//Where does Paul state that believers do not have to go through the great
tribulation? He taught that we must suffer "much tribulation".//

Paul does not need to say Christians will not go through the
great tribulation PERIOD; that he said we must suffer "much tribulation"
(great suffering) PROVES that we shall not go through the
great tribulation PERIOD.

 

Ed Edwards,

I get the distinct impression that you question whether God knows the
difference between a single 24-hour-day and 365,240 days.

Your words:
___________________________________________________________
"This seems clear, the day of the Lord is AT LEAST 1,000 YEARS Long.

Brother Ituttut's explanation of the Word of God should not, cannot
be logically called `rejection of the word of the Lord'" End Quote.
___________________________________________________________

Peter did not mean that 1000 years equals a single day!!
He meant 365,240 days of God's patience is LIKE just one Day of ours.

So I'm sure that Jesus also knew the difference between the last day
of this present AGE and 1000 years for the AGE TO COME.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :laugh:

 

Ed Edwards,

Quote:
______________________________________________________________
"Paul does not need to say Christians will not go through the
great tribulation PERIOD; that he said we must suffer "much tribulation"
(great suffering) PROVES that we shall not go through the
great tribulation PERIOD". End quote.
_______________________________________________________

This kind of reasoning is the same as saying: "One Day = 1000 Years".
It's the same kind of tell-tale reasoning you employed to try to convince me that Jesus meant His "coming and Presence will occur *BEFORE* the great tribulation rather than *AFTER* the great tribulation". (Did you forget about that?)
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :sleeping_2:

 

Trying to follow this a bit, without getting involved in any detail. But I fail to see how Mark 13:27 became such a point of controversy. To aid all, I'll quote it.

"27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven." (Mark 13:27- NKJV)

Ed

 

Ed Sutton,

You are wondering why Mark 13:27 became a point of controversy:
____________________________________________________________
"27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven." (Mark 13:27- NKJV)
____________________________________________________________

Many do not accept that Jesus will "gather the Elect (Saints) but only that He "re-gathers the Jews to Israel ... after the great tribulation". That has been the official teaching of the Scofield Bible. In the 1967 edition the "note" on "re-gathering the Jews to Israel" was moved from Matt.24:31 to Matt.24:34 to avoid the controversy on the identity of the Elect.

Moving the "note" hopefully removed the controversial question of whether the "gathering together above" refers to a literal "gathering of the Elect" to heaven ... instead of "re-gathering" Jews to the land of Israel.

My point is that Jesus sends the angels AND raises up the dead in Christ AND gathers all the Elect, dead and alive, FROM the EARTH to heaven (Mark 13:27) BEFORE the Angels take over and "gather all believers from the HEAVENS (Matt.24:31) to meet Jesus at the Synagogue" in the sky. Paul uses the noun, "gathering together place", in 2 Thess.2:1.

Only Matt.24:31 describes the "gathering by angels from the heavenS" and says it occurs while the tribes of earth "mourn" at seeing the Son of
Man appear. Paul agrees with Jesus that the Saints "come from (the 3rd) heaven with Jesus" before those who survive are "caught up to meet them in the air at His Presence ... so that ALL the saints come with Jesus at His Presence". I Thess.4:13-17; I Thess.3:13.

The first phase of the "gathering together above" (meaning of episunago)
happens in the twinkling of an eye and BEFORE Christ appears. Men "see the sign of the Son of Man and mourn". Matt.24:30. Then the angels are confined to escorting the Saints from "all extremities of the heavenS" ... NOT FROM EARTH. Matt.24:31.

Ituttut insists that Matt.24:31 and Mark 13:27 must say and mean the same thing. Neither Mark nor Paul mentions the part played by angels in the gathering together process. But if Jesus and Paul describe the same
gathering together to the Synagogue in the sky, the angels take part in the Rapture in order to get those being gathered to the meeting-place!
Again, Paul uses the noun, "gathering together place", in 2 Thess.2:1.

Ituttut parrots the Scofield view by insisting the elect refer to Jews. That eliminates the time of the Rapture of all surviving Saints from "after the tribulation" and from being a literal gathering "from all extremities of the earth to heaven" by Jesus and then from "all extremities of the heavens" by the angels.

My proof comes from the Greek use of the third person SINGULAR in
Mark 13:27 for Jesus "sending the angels as well as gathering of elect". Jesus does BOTH! He alone has the power and knows whom to raise up from the grave so that "not one will be lost on the last day".

Ituttut refuses to accept that "episunaxei" means that HE, Jesus, will
gather the Elect as well as He will send (apostelei) the angels to gather
the same Elect OUT of the HeavenS; not TO the heavenS. The Elect are already in the air when the angels complete the process.

The angels will fulfill their task while the tribes of earth watch and mourn! In the two phases of the gathering, the Elect are taken OUT (ek) of the 4 winds ... first by Jesus and then taken out of the same 4 winds by the Angels! This makes the action a single, continuous operation.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Here are some definitions of DAY not in the
on-line dictionary:

12. The period during which a planet completes one rotation on its axis.

13. The 48-hour period in which a specific date is present
on the earth. (Today, 22 July 2006 started 17 times zones and 18
hours ago (35 hours) and will end 7 time zones from now and
six more hours (13 hours) - 35+13 = 48 hours.)

BTW, God has no problems with 'day'.
It is some people who have problems with 'day'.

 

Context all, context. But FWIW, I was not aware that there was any such thing as "the official teaching of the Scofield Bible" any more than there was an "official teching of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible" or an "official teaching of the Annotated Bible" or an "official teaching of (any other) Bible". Although I am not familiar with all groups, denominations, organizations, schools, etc. so there could possibly be some that take some position advocated by some 'interpretated Bible' in its entirety, I guess. Whatever positions I, persnally, happen to hold are mine, not determined by any reference Bible, although I happen to agree in some part with most, as far as I know. And for the record, it takes 'interpretation' to automatically equate 'elect' and 'saints', for there are times that one or the other is spoken of alone, and not in conjunction.

Ed

 

Following up on my earlier post, before the last, I though the question or controversy was which of two did or did not accurately quote Mark 13:27, hence my quoting of same.

Ed

 

Well, Ed, did you check to see whether Jesus will Himself "gather
the Elect FROM earth to heaven" before the angels "gather them
out of the same 4 winds FROM the extremities of the heavenS??

Mel

 

____________________________________________________________
ED,

I found your closing remark most interesting.
"God has no problem" since Jesus said His Father knows "The Day and The Hour".

But you seem to think that when Jesus said:
"Neither He nor any man knows The Day or The Hour"
He was NOT convinced of the meaning of the word DAY since and because He didn't say "No man knows the DAYS of His coming"!!

When Jesus meant more than ONE DAY OR ONE HOUR, He did not use the DEFINITE article "THE":

He said: "AN HOUR is coming in which all will hear His voice", i.e., "AN
HOUR when the righteous rise up and AN HOUR when the unrighteous
rise up". John 5:28-29.

I am Pre-Millennial because Jesus distinguishes between TWO different
HOURS; but He spoke only of THE DAY and the HOUR of His Presence!!
He limited His coming and Presence to a single Day and Hour; The DAY OF GOD'S WRATH; a single DAY whether you call it twelve hours or 24 hours or "48 hours" as you claim it will be.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :wavey:

 

Mel Miller: //But you seem to think ... /

You are still batting 000 on what I believe,
only about 200 (20%) on what I think,
400 (40%) on what I mean, and about
600 (60% )on what I said.

(But I like Mel anyway! Mel has his own
opinion - /constrast this good feature of Bro. Mel
with those who have somebody
else's opinion and just parrot it without even knowing
what it really means/ Bro Mel is also a good example to follow
when he goes to disassembling Preterists )

It probably would be better to say: "Did you mean ... ?"
instead of "you think ... ."

We were discussing my statement:

Mel Miller:

1. Uh, isn't it arrogant to assume that what you think Jesus
means is exactly what Jesus mean? That is a retorical
question, of course it is arrogant to think that Jesus
spake YOUR opinions, thoughts, and conjectures.

I'm sure Jesus was convinced of which time, hour, watch, day, month,
season, or year of which he spake. I'm not sure that other
people reading this conversation are so knowledgable???

2. In fact, Jesus did say something like:
Matthew 25:42 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

Therefore be alert, since you don't know
what day* your Lord is coming.

Translators Footnote: *24:42 Other mss read hour = time

Thus using two different, original language, sources
(used by the translator) we see that here
the meaning of 'hour' here is 'time'.
In fact, I find in Bible prophecy that
the hour = the day = the month = the year
and all mean "at the proper time".



3. Bonus scriptures:
Matthew 25:43 (HCSB):

But know this: if the homeowner
had known what time* the thief was comming, he
would have stayed alert and not let his house
be broken into.

Translators Footnote: *24:43 - Literally watch,
a division of the night in ancient times.

Matthew 25:44 (HCSB):
This is why you also must be ready,
because the SOn of Man is coming at an hour
you do not expect.

So, in this one passage Jesus says He will
return in:
1. 1 Day = 1,440 minutes v. 42
2a. 1 watch in the night = 2 hours = 120 minutes v. 43

2b. or maybe 1 Watch = 4 hours = 480 minutes
3. 1 hour = 60 minutes v. 44

As I said:
I find in Bible prophecy that
the hour = the day = the month = the year
and all mean "at the proper time".

4. I've seen people that tell me "We cannot know the
day nor the hour. But nothing says that we
cannot know the month or year. Jesus will return
on such-and-such a month in such-and-such."
Their statement is wrong. For all for indicators
of time (hour, day, month, year) indicate
AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME, IN THE FULLNESS OF TIME,
AND IT CAME TO PASS, or WHEN GOD WILLS IT SO, etc.

BTW, in addition to 'the hour', 'the day', 'the month',
and 'the year', you will also see 'the watch' (in size
between 'the day' and 'the month'; you will also see
'the season' (in size between 'the month' and 'the year').

I find in Bible prophecy that
the hour = the day = the month = the year
and all mean "at the proper time".

5.





Mel Miller:

Sorry, he uses in one speach:
1. 1 day = 24 hours, or 12, or 8, or 48
2. 1 watch = 2 hours, or 4, or 5
3. 1 hour = 1 hour

Obviously Jesus was not pointing to an exact
schedule.

Mel Miller:

I didn't claim DAY OF GOD'S WRATH would be one
each 48 hour day. I only defined a '48-hour day'.
I believe the one DAY of the Lord to be several things:

1. the one 24-hour day in which Jesus will return
visably to all the world, to kick Antichrist booty and to
set up the Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.
2. the one 7-year Week of the Tribulation Period
3. the physical 1,000 year messanic kingdom

The 7-year week/day/period is spoken of in Daniel 9
and is there split into two portions, each 3½-years long,
or 360x3½ = 1260-days
or 12x3½ = 42-months
or 'time, times, and the dividing of time' (1+2+½ = 3½-years)
These 3-½ year periods are mentioned in Daniel 12 and Revelation.
These timing clues as to the meaning of 'day' are straight from
the Bible: letting the Bible interpert the Bible.
No, there is nothing wrong with 'day' meaning 1,000 years
(2 Peter 3:8) or with 'day' meaning
a 7-year-long 70th Week of Daniel.

I find in Bible prophecy that
the day = the hour = the month = the year
and all mean "at the proper time".

Mel Miller:

But in no wise does Jesus say that both these hours are
one 60-minute hour. Here is the
whole scripture without the omitions:

John 5:25,28-219 (HCSB):

25. I assure you: An hour is coming,
and is now here,
when the dead will hear the voice
of the Son of God, and those who hear it will live.
...
28. Do not be amazed at this, because a time is coming
when all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29. and come out -- those who have done good things,
to the resurrection of life, but those who
have done wicked things, to the resurrection of judgement.

I find in Bible prophecy that
the hour = the day = the month = the year
and all mean "at the proper time".

 

I'm sorry to say you inject the wrong pronoun accusing Jesus of saying two different things. Give it up Mel for no authoritative Bible translation gives credence to your wrong position.

 

Scripture teaches all will be resurrected, but not all at the same time.

 

Since this ridiculous format does not like to see merely, "Amen!" I'll have to do this, here. :thumbs: :thumbs:

Ed

 

Ituttut and Ed Suttton,

Quote:
_____________________________________________________________
"Scripture teaches all will be resurrected, but not all at the same time".
This from Ituttut

"Since this ridiculous format does not like to see merely, "Amen!" I'll have to do this, here".
This from Ed Sutton
_____________________________________________________________

I take it that Ituttut (IT) here denies that "all believers in their graves will be raised up on the last day" ... a deliberate denial of the word of the Lord since all believers who "die in the Lord" include tribulation martyrs! Rev.14:13.

Since ES quotes just the words of IT, I take it that Ed Sutton here appoves of IT's denial with an "Amen" that also disapproves of the format as "ridiculous". Ed, are you in approval of IT's statement and what do you mean by the format being "ridiculous"?

If you were referring to Ed Edward's format as "ridiculous", it's more ridiculous than IT's attempt to seek to explain that Jesus did NOT mean what He said about the Day of God's Wrath being a single 12-HOUR DAY with the "sun turning dark at noon"!

My main point, the one that EE and IT refuse to accept is that the DAY of the Lord is a single 12-Hour Day ... NO MORE THAN 12 HOURS; BUT COULD BE LESS THAN 12-HOURS in being fulfilled since the "sun will turn dark at noon and the light will return at twilight ... on the Day Christ comes with ALL, YES ALL, the Saints AT HIS PRESENCE"!! Amos 8:9; Zech.14:5-7;
I Thess.3:13.

IT's insistance that Amos 8:9 refers to the darkness from 12 to 3 at the Cross is an unholy attempt to divert from the truth that ALL believers will
be brought from heaven AND/OR raised up together from the earth to meet the Lord in the air! IT's refusal to accept the word of Christ and Paul that "God will bring the souls of ALL those WITH JESUS who die in the LORD" IS A TOTAL DENIAL OF THE WORD OF GOD!!! I Thess.4:13-14.

Mel Miller www.lastday.net

 

Ituttut,

Today, post #175, you confess the astounding refusal to acknowledge the truth of the very words of Jesus after I quoted them three times:
Quote:
____________________________________________________________
I'm sorry to say you inject the wrong pronoun accusing Jesus of saying two different things. Give it up Mel for no authoritative Bible translation gives credence to your wrong position.
____________________________________________________________

First, Jesus DID say two different things:

1. He will send the angels and "HE will gather the elect from earth..."
2. The angels will "gather the elect from extremities of the heavens..."

You asserted that Jesus in Matt.24:31 said the identical same thing that He said in Mark 13:27.

Instead of only charging me with error, will you please answer two ?s:

1. If episunaxei does NOT mean "He will gather together", what does it mean?
2. What was the "identical" thing that He said in both texts?

Mel Miller www.lastday.net :type:

 

Strange, a whole discussion showing none of us knows all
about what 'in the name of Jesus' means.

The angels harvest souls, it is done
'in the name of Jesus' -- that is on the behalf of
Messiah Jesus and under the authority of Messiah Jesus.
The price of leadership is such that the leader is
responsible for what the underlings do.
So if the angels physically harvest souls or if
the Lord Jesus personally/physically harvests souls,
the situation is the same - Messiah Jesus is the
responsible party. 'Lord' means the boss, the responsible
leader.

I to am a man under authority. When I do something
'in the name of' of my authority, I make real sure
that what I do is exactly what my authority would do,
for what I do will be counted as though that authority
did it.

Ituttut: //Scripture teaches all will be resurrected,
but not all at the same time.//

Amen, Brother Ituttut -- You are so RIGHT ON!!!

Mel Miller: //I take it that Ituttut (IT) here denies that "all believers
in their graves will be raised up on
the last day" ... a deliberate denial of the word of the Lord
since all believers who "die in the Lord" include tribulation
martyrs! Rev.14:13.//

you 'take it' in error, just as you assume IN ERROR that
'the day of the Lord is 12-hours only.
(BTW, if the sun quits shining at noon, it doesn't mean
that the 'day' doesn't get finished, the day continues on).
Your wrong assumption 'the day of the Lord is 12-hours only'
leads to all other kinds of wrong conclusions.

So Brother Ituttut doesn't deny "all believers
in their graves will be raised up on
the last day". Brother Ituttut believes this scripture,
he just has a more correct understanding of that scriputre
than those who TIE GOD'S HANDS with a 12-hour time-limit.

One time I authorized a vendor to overhaul my Bathroom.
He said early in February he could have it done in THREE WEEKS.
At the end of May he had the job complete (I was never
a whole night without a pot and the bathtub
was only gone one night).
Little did I realise in February that the 'three weeks'
he would work on the project were:

1. a week in February
2. a week in March
3. a week in May.

If God wants to have 1,000 (one thousand) years or so between
the completition of the resurrection of the Just and the
start of the resurrection of the unjust (see Rev 20), then
the Doctrine of the Soverignty of GOd lets Him do it that way.
What is sure: all will be resurrected (some to glory, some
to eternal damnation) and all will be judged. But not
all will resurrected and judged in the same 12-hour period
as some incorrectly assume.


Mel Miller: //IT's insistance that Amos 8:9 refers to the darkness
from 12 to 3 at the Cross is an unholy attempt to divert
from the truth ... //

I disagree. Ituttut must have been right, Amos 8:9 is
a promise fulfilled at the Cross.
If you are going to whitewash your own sepulchre, you need a
better shade of white
You are making a shade-of-gray interpertation out FALSLY
to be a black-&-white situation - but it isn't

Mel Miller: //... ALL believers will
be brought from heaven AND/OR raised up together
from the earth to meet the Lord in the air!//

Amen, Brother Mel - Preach it!
But why do you limit this one one and only one time.
My documentation upsteam and in other places shows that
there will be multiple resurrections of the saints
EACH TIME RESURRECTING EVERYBODY.

One such rapture/resurrection will be before the
Tribulation Period (3½-years of Wrath Lite),
another resurrection /of the 2 witnesses anyway/
at the middle of the Tribulaion Period and before
the start of the Great Tribulation Period (Wrath
Heavy). A final resurrection of the Just at the
coming of Jesus to destroy the Antichrist /and rescue
the reminants of humans from total destruction/.

BTW, the final judgement after the physical Millinnial
Messanic Kingdom will also be THE TOTAL WRATH OF GOD
UNDILUTED PERIOD. A Triune God can have more than one
WRATH, you know