Need for Authority

Tuor:
The truth causes division. Try reading Mat. 10. Jesus said I came not to make peace but a sword or division. The word of God cuts deep into the spiritual man. Hebs. 4:10-12. It reflects man as he truly is. James 1:25. The true image of man is seen, not only in his inner thoughts but in his doing of the word. James 1:22.

Love is not the problem. It is obedience. Moreover, Jesus connected the two. He said, If ye love me, keep my commandments. John 14:15.

Let me give you a word of warning. Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all them that obey him. Hebs. 5:8,9. The standard will be as Jesus said in John 12:48. He that rejecteth me and receiveth not MY WORD has one that judges him the WORD that I have spoken the same shall judge him in the last day.

Funny thing about love. It is useless unless it is reciprocal. see John 14:15, Rev. 22:14.

I have attempted to devour no one. In the course of this discussion, I have used appropriate methods to teach the truth on this matter, no more, no less.
In reference to this issue, I have used the following:
1. Affirmation of my position.
2. Defined the terms as they relate to that position.
3. Provided ALL the scriptures related to my position.
4. Examined the meaning of the words of the eight scriptures that relate to my position.
5. Examined the scriptural evidence you presented for your position ( I.E. BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000) in light of the evidence.
6. Rebutted any question asked in refernce to the affrirmation with scripture.
7.I provided both scholarly testimony and the testimony of scholars that condemn your position.
8. I have made only those conclusions that are warranted by the totality of the harmonious evidence.

I have not talked to a wall, legalist, to borrow a few of your inflammatory remarks made about me personally. I have used sarcasm to show the obvious lack of regard your position has for the AUTHORITY of the new testament. However, it was not a personal attack on your character. There is a difference. I never said or implied you did not have the right to your opinion or choice. God's love allows us to be sincere and be sincerely wrong.

 

This argument could be used in virtually every endeavor of man, even pulling weeds in the garden. Pull this weed, but don't pull that one, etc. It is terribly legalistic to say that because we are commanded to sing, that we cannot do so with instrumental accompaniment. After all, instruments do help to keep us to keep our voices in tune and in rhythm with each other, providing the harmonies that are well pleasing to our own ears and to God.

Could you interpret the command to sing as doing so without the aid of a conductor? After all, the conductor is an instrument that helps us to start and end together, and a good conductor causes us to "emphasis" the dynamics of what we are singing. Emphasis makes music interesting and not just a humdrum of cacophony.

Singing is a Work that man does. Are we not to do our works to the very best of our abilities? Doesn't that include all that I've mentioned? Doesn't that include being inventive and resourceful in our presentation of the Human voice to God in Praise? Couldn't resourcefulness include the application of appropriate musical harmonies and rhythms in support of the human voice?

The truth is instrumental music and instrumental accompaniment to singing is illustrated throughout scripture. David entertained Saul and I might add God, by playing his instrument and singing songs accompanying himself with his instrument. David after all, was a man after God's own heart, yet he played a stringed percussion instrument and look at all the musically compatible lyrics He wrote, even whole cantata's and many classical numbers both operatic and symphonic are based on what David left us in the written word. Is it misappropriation to apply the writings of David to great musical works? If yes, then we would have to throw out half of all the hymns in our hymn books! Think about the musical efforts of the Wesley's John and Charles, and the blessed Fanny Crosby, to mention but three of the many thousands who praised God in their musical accomplishments.

Let's Get real here folks. If you think Heavenly music is not made using instruments, you have invented a new way of making sound. We may not know what those heavenly instruments are yet, but we will know.

 

I'll repeat a question that was asked before, but went unanswered.

Is it ok to sing with a tape of prerecorded music playing, that serves to keep everyone singing together and on key?

 

Yelsew:
Fortunately, Christ's words have set the standard and not the wisdom of men. John 12:48, I Cor. 2:5-13. Nice editorial though.

 

T2U:
According to the command found in the new testament of Christ. I answered it in the last post. You quoted it. NO! is the answer. It is not acceptable to use instruments in praise to God as per the new testament command for singing It goes beyond that which is written. I Cor. 4:6. It transgresses the command to sing. Col. 3:16, Eph.5:19, Acts 16:24,25, I Cor. 14:15, James 5:13, Hebrews 2;12, Romans 15:9, Mat. 26:30.

 

Frank,
Have you ever heard of Handel's Messiah? Have you ever attended a perfomance of the Messiah?

It is believed that Handel was a Christian. What would you have Handel to do? Would you have instructed him to bury his talent and be condemned by the Lord as that wicked and slothful servant for having done so? Is not one supposed to use their talents for the Lord as Handel did? The Messiah has inspired many throughout the centuries, even causing the king, George II of England, to stand during the Hallelujah chorus. It has been played and sung in many churches as well. Are they to be condemned for this: The singing and playing of Scriptures to the glory of God?
DHK

Handel's Messiah

 

Frank, I'm confused by your scripture references, as follows: Please identify where Jesus is addressing Singing and Musical instruments.

Where did Jesus address the topic of Singing and musical instruments?

These are not the words of Jesus the Christ, but rather of Paul the Apostle. Wherein does he address the topic of singing and musical instruments?

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Frank, CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING in communicating the meaning of scripture. You are taking snippets or scripture out of their context and forcing them to have a meaning they do not have IN CONTEXT! So you want scripture? Let's use those you posted in support of your position!

Paul is arguing his position with the Greeks of Corinth, people who prided themselves in their wisdom.

There is nothing contained here regarding the use of musical instruments, only the folly of self importance.

And to the believers in Colossus, Turkey, Paul is giving General instructions on how to live the Christian Life.

Neither Jesus, nor Paul is commanding that one not use musical instruments in singing psalms and hymns. In fact in verse 17 Paul says "and whatever you say or do (could include playing musical instruments), let it be in the name of the Lord Jesus, in thanksgiving to God the Father through him."

Once again, Paul is giving general instructions regarding Christian behavior to the believers in Ephesus, Turkey. Verse 19 is not a command to sing psalms and hymns and inspired songs among yourselves, and singing and chanting to the lord in your hearts, without the aid of musical instruments, but rather to have a glad heart singing songs and chanting to the lord. There is no prohibition anywhere in this set of general instructions against musical instruments.

Imprisonment of Paul and Silas

Frank, the following is but a snippet of scripture, but it provides the CONTEXT of what Paul is attempting to tell those believing Greeks in Corinth[1 Cor 14:10] However many the languages used in the world, all of them use sound;
[1 Cor 14:11] but if I do not understand the meaning of the sound, I am a barbarian to the person who is speaking, and the speaker is a barbarian to me.
[1 Cor 14:12] So with you, as you are eager to have spiritual powers, aim to be rich in those which build up the community.
[1 Cor 14:13] That is why anybody who speaks in a tongue must pray that he may be given the interpretation.
[1 Cor 14:14] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit may be praying but my mind derives no fruit from it.
[1 Cor 14:15] What then? I shall pray with the spirit, but I shall pray with the mind as well: I shall sing praises with the spirit and I shall sing praises with the mind as well.(there is no prohibition here against musical instruments accompanying the singing of praises whether audibly or in the mind)
[1 Cor 14:16] Otherwise, if you say your blessing only with the spirit, how is the uninitiated person going to answer `Amen' to your thanksgiving, without understanding what you are saying?
[1 Cor 14:17] You may be making your thanksgiving well, but the other person is not built up at all.
[1 Cor 14:18] I thank God that I speak with tongues more than any of you;
[1 Cor 14:19] all the same, when I am in the assembly I would rather say five words with my mind, to instruct others as well, than ten thousand words in a tongue.
[1 Cor 14:20] Brothers, do not remain children in your thinking; infants in wickedness-agreed, but in your thinking grown-ups.
[1 Cor 14:21] It says in the written Law: In strange tongues and in a foreign language I will talk to this nation, and even so they will refuse to listen, says the Lord.
[1 Cor 14:22] So then, strange languages are significant not for believers, but for unbelievers; whereas on the other hand, prophesying is not for unbelievers, but for believers.[/quote]

Frank, James, the apostle, is giving general instructions to believers and verse 13 is not an inviolable command but rather an expression of the thought, "if you are in trouble, Pray, but if you are happy, sing a psalm". But, as you have done, if you take verse 13 out of its CONTEXT, you can twist the meaning to whatever you want.

Again, General guidelines for living the Christian life.

Frank, Hebrews 2:12 speaks to the source of our redemption and has nothing to do with singing or songs

Notice that verse 12 cannot stand alone.
The thought begins with verse 11 with the words "For Consecrator and consecrated..."and ends in verse 13 with the words,"...whom God has given me." Thus we have the complete thought,

Out of CONTEXT, verse 12 is meaningless.

Verse 9 is not a command at all but a declaration of intent! There is no prohibition against musical instruments contained herein! CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING!

Again, there is no prohibition against musical instruments. Jesus was with his disciples having his famous "last supper" which was a private meeting, in an intimate dinner setting. Passover was traditionally a very somber event, it commemorates the night that the firstborn of all who were not covered by the Lamb's Blood on the door were killed by the command of God. Musical instruments would not have been appropriate for such an occasion because the tone was not of happiness but of death and sorrow, and I might add fear.

 

Is God the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow?
Of course He is.
If God was pleased with musical intruments being used to praise Him in the Old Testament, why would He suddenly oppose them in the New Covenant, especially considering He made no clear statement of His disapproval?
The elements of change from OT to NT are clearly deliniated; the playing of instruments in praise are not one of those clearly deliniated changes. Being a "man-of-the-Book" (the whole Book), I quickly recall in Psalms 33 and 81 we are commanded to sing and play musical instruments .
Will you now argue that the Old Testament is of no value? I doubt it, but I am interested in reading your next quibble.

 

Dhk:
I have a suggestion for Handel. Get a band and go on tour. He could have supported himself and use his talent.

We have a family of five who are very talented in music. However, they do not need or seek any instruments. The best music is that which emanates from the soul in praise to the God of all grace.

The Bible teaches what is to be done in singing. I have no right to do more or less than God has asked.

I will ask you a question. Can one get into heaven by transgressing the will of God? If so, how do you know this? Are there unrepentant sins less damning than others? If yes, how do you know? What does the Bible say about unrepentant sin?

 

Tuor:
I have read Romans 14 many times. However, whereas all meats are lawful; ALL music is not. You should just read Romans 14 and not substitue anything. Matters of faith are based on that which has been expressed. Romans 10;17. God has expressed his desire on the issue of meats and music. Mat. 26:30, Romans 15:9, Acts 16:24,25, I Cor. 14;15, James 5:13, Col. 3;16, Eph. 5:19. That is not nearly it, that is it!

 

Dan:
If God was pleased with musical intruments being used to praise Him in the Old Testament, why would He suddenly oppose them in the New Covenant, especially considering He made no clear statement of His disapproval?
Dan, because he said so in the new testament, the legally binding covenant of man. Hebrews 8:15-17,13;10:1-4,Gal 5:1-4; NOTE:Galatians 3:11  But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12  And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
13  Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
God allowed POLYGAMY under the Old Law. Can a man please God today and have more than one wife? Gen. 2:24, Mat. 19:1-9, I Kings 11:2-4.
God allowed SLAVERY in the OLd Testament. Is salvery a righteous relationship today? Leviticus 27.
God allowed DIVORCE for any reason. Is is ok to divorce your wife if she burns the bisquits? Mat. 19:1-9;5:32.
Dan, this is a bad argument. One that appeals to the law which has been abolished as binding on us today. Eph. 2:15, Col.2:14.

The Old Law was NEVER FOR YOU AND ANY OTHER GENTILE OR JEW OF TODAY. Deuteronomy 5:1-6.¶And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2  The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3  The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4  The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5  (I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount saying,
6  ¶I am the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
In Joshua 21: 43-45 God fulfills his promises to Israel. ¶And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44  And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45  There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

 

Tuor:
I hope you will actually read verse 14:23 and apply it to mechanical instruments.Faith comes by hearing the word of God. Can uyou provide one word form God that forms faith in pianos? In all of this thread, there is not one passage from the authority of Christ that supports your contention. One must rationally conclude one practices your contention without faith as he has no word from God to form it. Of Course, that is the one way a false doctrine may be espoused.
Other ways include:just forget context, words in context, meaning of words in context, and by all means do not use THE TOTALITY OF EVIDENCE.

Romans 14 is about liberty to practice what is lawful or scriptural where the faith of the weak is concerned, not unlawful use where there is no faith for the practice. This is an abuse of Romans 14. This is another one of your favorite techniques of debating.

 

Yelsew:
Context is everything. And, there is no context where the new testament authorizes pianos, banjos, drums.

The prohibition is found in the specific command to Sing.Col. 3:16, Eph.5:19.

The prohibition is found in the silence of authority for the practice. Hebrews 7:14; 8:4.

The prohibition is found in the authoratative teachings of Christ. Mat. 28:18-20, II Tim. 3:16,17, I Cor. 4:6. He commmanded ALL THINGS. He commanded singing, not playing.

The prohibition is found in the lack of the endorsement from the name of Christ for the practice. Col. 3:17. Christ did not command this in his name. He did command singing. CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! SEE COL. 3:16,17.