Shepherds

John:

Where in Holy Scripture was Peter's office of feeding the Lord's sheep and lambs first given? Didn't all the Apostles fall away?

God Bless

 

Where in Holy Scripture was Peter's office of feeding the Lord's sheep and lambs first given? Didn't all the Apostles fall away?

God Bless </font>[/QUOTE]Well, Peter was the worst offender except for Judas. As to Peter's call, several passages come to mind: Mat. 16:19, John 20:22, 23; Matt. 18:17-20; etc.

 

Frank covered the qualifications quite well. Christian congregations have been given great liberty as to the specific method of the call.

 

Frank covered the qualifications quite well. Christian congregations have been given great liberty as to the specific method of the call. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but my question wasn't about qualifications, but about how one gains the office. Frank's post quotes Titus 1:5 "...ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee."

So here we have the notion of ordination, and of succession ("as I had appointed thee").

Finally, who has given Christian congregations great liberty as to the specific method of the call?

 

I think you all jumped too quickly!

Tell me, is Jesus saying that all who become believers including those among the Jews will unite under the Pope in Rome? Has that Happened?

Is that not a part of what the Israeli/Palistinian struggle is all about? The Christian religion vs the Jewish religion, both having root in Abraham.

The Palistinians have not aligned under the Pope, and neither has the Christian church in Jerusalem!

Isn't there an Orthodox Faction vs Roman Faction among the "Catholic" adherants?

The whole Point is this, There is more than one Flock who are identified as believers in and followers of Jesus. The Pope is the head of but one flock of all flocks that hear and follow Jesus.

 

Titus 1:5 "..sees Paul appointing Titus, not Jesus appointing Peter.

 

John:

Why do you say this? That is not taught in Holy Scripture.

We don't know what the others did to fall away. But, Jesus said they all would fall away according to the prophecy in Scripture and Peter was to strengthen the brethren after he has turned again.

According to the Bible, Satan specifically asked permission of Jesus to sift Peter like wheat. Satan must have known Peter was special to Jesus Christ.

Jesus had prayed for Peter’s faith not to fail, and knew Peter would have a conversion of heart, and then could lead the other Apostles out of their falling away. He was already giving Peter the role of head Shepherd of the Apostles here, then later head Shepherd of the whole flock on earth.

Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus *said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.'

Luke 22:31
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat;

Luke 22:32
but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers."

After falling away and denying Christ 3X Jesus affirmed Peter 3X. Jesus Christ gave Peter the role of head Shepherd of all of Jesus Christ's lambs and sheep__the whole flock.

John 21:15
So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs .

John 21:16
He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep .

John 21:17
He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep .


God Bless

 

Well, I was asking how one gains the Office of the Holy Ministry. I know Jesus is no longer personally appointing apostles, but we do have examples of the ordained in turn ordaining others.

Perhaps, just has we have websites and T-shirts that ask "Who founded your church?" we should also ask "Who validly ordained your shepherds?"

 

(MikeS)

Well, I was asking how one gains the Office of the Holy Ministry.

(Singer)

Obviously, men and women are called by God to serve in the Ministry.
I admire those who are and know it (know their calling). In a lesser degree,
I've talked with a few who remain within a cult as they have more influence to
undo the wrongs than if they left. They sacrifice to become one with those they
intend to influence for the Lord. We should accept "whatever state we are in" as
Paul said in Philippians 4:11 and be content. Is it not by divine appointment that
we each end up in different ministries. Some teachers, some preachers etc.
Bishops, elders and on down must feel a call (God's will) and comply. The opportunities
that led them to those various positions are also God's doing. The mate we chose
to spend our lives with is God's will. Our occupations are God's doing.

The fact that I work within Country Music and find many distraught individuals
in bars and lounges is a ministry. (They are actually easier to share Christ with than
those at a church social).

Whether the Office of the Holy Ministry or the mowing of the grass for a needy neighbor,
it's God's Will for that individual and it doesn't have to be supported by six bibles and
four languages to impress upon the giver that it is such.

Are we all eyes? Are we all ears? Are we all dependent upon Christ's appointing
Peter to a task with a supposed succession to follow for us to do our own version
of God's will for us? No

 

Called is one thing. I'm interested in the part about being ordained, and then (and only then) going forth and ordaining others. Sounds like being called isn't enough.

 

Called + Complying = Ordained by God

Spit it out, MikeS. What are you trying to say ?

 

Surely you aren't suggesting that we were not given the scriptures? It was apparant that Christ expected everyone to know the scriptures. The apostles used the scriptures to tell people about Christ. The scriptures are how we know that Jesus is who He said He was.

We do have spiritual shepards but there are also wolves out there pretending to be shepards and we have to know the difference.

And how do we "figure" this out? By knowing the scriptures. If the shepard is teaching that Word and is an example in accordance with the scripture then we know that we can follow and be taught by Him.

Peter makes it clear that scripture is not of any private interpretation. Everyone can know what it means. He tells us this and then warns us about false teachers. If we do not know what stories are scriptural, we can not know which ones are made up. There must be a way to "know" which shepards are real and which are false.

Know the scriptures, that's how we figure it out.

~Lorelei

 

Why do you say this? That is not taught in Holy Scripture.

</font>[/QUOTE] And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee. Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly. Matt. 26:73-75

Did any of the other Apostles publicly deny the Lord three times?

 

Surely you aren't suggesting that we were not given the scriptures? It was apparant that Christ expected everyone to know the scriptures. The apostles used the scriptures to tell people about Christ. The scriptures are how we know that Jesus is who He said He was.

We do have spiritual shepards but there are also wolves out there pretending to be shepards and we have to know the difference.

And how do we "figure" this out? By knowing the scriptures. If the shepard is teaching that Word and is an example in accordance with the scripture then we know that we can follow and be taught by Him.

Peter makes it clear that scripture is not of any private interpretation. Everyone can know what it means. He tells us this and then warns us about false teachers. If we do not know what stories are scriptural, we can not know which ones are made up. There must be a way to "know" which shepards are real and which are false.

Know the scriptures, that's how we figure it out.

~Lorelei </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Lorelei but this seems like circular reasoning to me! Yes we know the scriptures by reading them, but how do we know what they are saying to us? Your answer seems to be, by reading the Scripture! Somewhere along the line you have to have an authority, and to whom do we go for that authority? Divine authority? or our own interpretation of divine authority? If everyone agreed on what the Bible said, then we would probably only have one church. God bless your day!

 

Yes, by reading them, by knowing them, living them. When Christ asked "Haven't you read in the scriptures?" it was apparant that he expected the Jews to have already read and understood them.

No where does this text say that someone else must explain to them or their children what the commandments "mean." Moses told them what the commandments were and they were to obey.

Some things are just clear. If you can't understand "do not steal" then you have a problem with reading comprehension, not a lack of spiritual misunderstanding. If a shepard teaches you something contrary to clear passages such as "there is no more sacrifice for sins" then they are a ravenous wolf, not a shepard of God.

Says who? Your shepard or God? How do you know the difference if you can't hold your shepard accountable or test what they are teaching you to see if it is from God or not? The noble Bereans checked up on Paul and not once were they told they must believe he was right simply because he was an apostle appointed by God.

There is only one church, the body of Christ.

~Lorelei

 

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10:14,15

Paul is not specific as to the method of the call just that preachers must be sent to preach the gospel. One method is to have an assembly of adult male members of the congregation issue the call.

 

I'm asking how people who have no line of apostolic succession can claim to be ordained. From your equation, it sounds as if we've found a new principle: sola ordinatio Deo (ordained by God alone). ('Course I have no idea if that's real Latin! )

 

John:

We don't know how the others fell away, but have Jesus words that they all would. They could have denied Jesus 100X, but it was not important to the gospel.

Satan specifically asked permission of Jesus to "sift" Peter like wheat. Jesus says He prayed that Peters faith would not fail. Satan would not triumph. Jesus knew Peter was going to come around and be able to strengthen the other Apostles___Jesus was confident Peter was the one to shepherd the other brothers and lead.

All we know of the others is that they all fell away, and would need Peter to stengthen them in Jesus absence. Sounds like Peter came through just as Jesus said he would. Satan didn't keep Peter. Jesus' prayer must have helped.

I don't understand why non-Catholics have such a low opinion of Peter. None of what I am saying is speculation, it is a literal reading of the Gospel. It is as if non-Catholics skip all the parts they don't want to see. Most non-Catholics are not even aware that all the Apostles fell away, to fulfill the prophecy in Holy Scripture.

God Bless

 

I'm asking how people who have no line of apostolic succession can claim to be ordained.

C'mon......aren't you really asking how anyone who is not a Catholic can make a
claim to ordination ?

I learned that wasn't so in the 3rd Grade.

No.........actually the Holy Spirit told me that at even a younger age.

Heck, I was born with that knowledge.

)

"Whosoever believes in Me shall never die" (Jesus)

I'm a Whosoever. Now that's Christian Joy !!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you Jesus.

 

I asked about apostolic succession, not Catholicism. Apparently ordination is another of those concepts that has been altered to take on a very different meaning in much of the non-Catholic world.