The Catholics link to Idolatry from Ancient Baylon

It appears that you are changing the standard.

What happened to not making the graven image?

Now it seems that you are taking the position that we can make a graven image as long as we don't have a parade.

The commandments don't say anything about parades.

 

GraceSaves said --
The Babylonians believed those statues TO BE GODS. We do not, and thus the distinction is destroyed at this point.

Bob said --
Actually - Budhists Hindus ets all declare that their images "represent" those whom they pray to - something the Hebrews never did - but something the Catholics have adopted.

And then I showed Catholic sources showing that in fact BOTH are the same system - the same method - the same practice. They even said the pagan practice was simply continued by changing WHO the dead person is that is being prayed to.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Adam,

A graven image is the same thing as a "carved" image.

And John Henry Cardinal Newman even admits that the use of "images" by the church at Rome comes from pagan sources.Cardinal Newman is called the "Father of the Second Vatican Council",so perhaps you will believe what he says:

"We are told in various ways by Eusebius , that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison , are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church"(Newman,"Newman Reader",Chapter 8,Section 2,#6).

http://www.newmanreader.org/works/development/chapter8.html#top

In His grace,--Jerry

 

"...and sanctified by their adoption into the Church" (Newman,"Newman Reader",Chapter 8,Section 2,#6).

This constant search for faults within the Catholic Church would all be funny if it weren't so sad.

 

Brother Adam,

A graven image is the same thing as a "carved" image.
</font>[/QUOTE]So then my daughter's soccer trophies are graven images which offend God?

 

MikeS,

You have to take the verse in the context in which it is written.Thou shalt not make any carved images,nor shall you bow down to them:

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them..."(Ex.20:4,5).

The act of "bowing down" is in regard to "worship",and the Lord does not want any believer to be "bowing down" to anyone or anything other than Himself:

"O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker"(Ps.95:6).

Why should anyone believe that the things He forbids are acceptable to God?Just because Cardinal Newman says that images are "sanctified" just because the church at Rome "adopted" them is no proof that they are in fact "sanctified".

The sad thing is the fact that those who follow Rome will not be persuaded no matter how much Scriptual evidence is presented to them.

They must have their images to bow down to,and no amount of Scriptual proof will change their minds.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

Brother Adam, Grant, Ron --

See whatcha miss by not being EASTERN ORTHODOX? We have no statues, just these wonderful icons.



Oh, I really really LIKE this one:



So we doesn't has to worry 'bout fallin' down in front of "graven images" because they ain't graved!!

Besides, they are prettier than statues.

 

Just another example of pagan influence.

http://www.sabbatarian.com/Paganism/Madonna03.html

Here we can see that Rome likes to refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as the "Child",as if He never grew up:

"she (Mary) is, for all these reasons, a most sure and efficacious assistance to us for arriving at the knowledge and love of Jesus Christ. Those, alas! furnish us by their conduct with a peremptory proof of it, who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ! As if the Child could be found elsewhere than with the Mother!"("AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM",ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X).

The Child !

And all the glory and honor goes to the Lord Jesus Christ,Who suffered and died on the Cross.But read what Pope Pius says:

"who seduced by the wiles of the demon or deceived by false doctrines think they can do without the help of the Virgin. Hapless are they who neglect Mary under pretext of the honor to be paid to Jesus Christ!

Oh no! We should not neglect Mary under the pretext that the honor should be paid to the Lord Jesus Christ.After all,He is just the Child.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

I agree, the Eastern Orthodox icons are very beautiful.

Ever take a moment to appreciate the effect that the Church had on the Classical Arts by it's support of them?

 

Indeed, Ron.

Once upon a time, before the changes in Vatican II, Catholic parishes and especially cathedrals, were the most beautiful and striking buildings in the world.

And Gregorian Chant?

Oh!! To die for!! Beautiful. No doubt it will be part of Heaven's worship (which our Baptist friends will just have to get used to)

When I was Presbyterian, I became enchanted with the thought of the Kingdom of God and of being just His servant. I loved the who idea of serving and loving a mighty King Who is loving, just, righteous, and beautiful to look upon.

So lo and behold, when I walk into St. Ann's as one who is examining the Faith and lo and behold, I find myself in the midst of the most gorgeous castle I have ever seen:



Yes, here is a place fit for a king --THE King --not some grubby little X Basking Robbins Ice Cream Parlour which is now the "International Church of the True and Living Apostolic Faith of Jehovah God Seventh Day Baptist/Presbyterians"

No sir.

I loved this place from Day One because it is everything a castle fit for the King should be!!

PS....there is one thing wrong with this picture. Can you guess what it is? This will test how much you know about Eastern and Western customs.

Brother Ed -- servant of the King, every Sunday at the altar.

 

Yup. It's those bothersome pews.

 

john6:63, you have not explained why you have pictures of your beloved, "saved", departed family members and friends, who are now in Heaven.

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath...


Why are you so selectively applying this commandment?

 

That post says that you don't have any statues, busts, or paintings of your deceased family.

What about photo's?

Do you take photo's of your family and friends?

If so, once they die and go to heaven, do you destroy the photos or keep them?

 

Ahhh... but you have them.

Why are you so selective in your application of the commandment?

What part of Exodus 20:4 gives an exception for looking upon your "likeness of any thing that is in heaven above" in rememberance only?

 

Exodus 20:4 doesn’t forbid making an image of something for artistic purposes; God Himself commanded Israel make images of cherubim (Exodus 25:18, 26:31). God forbids the making of images as an aid to worship.

Furthermore John 4:24 explains furthers the reasoning behind the second commandment: God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. The use of images and other material things as a focus or help to worship denies who God is (Spirit) and how we must worship Him (in spirit and truth).

Paul elaborates, see Romans 1:22-23

Again I refer you to the Letter of Jeremiah I have linked on my first post. You will see the striking traditional similarities between how the Babylonians and the Catholics regard their statues. Which is the purpose of this thread. To open the Catholics eyes to this error your Church is involved in.

Jeremiah was displeased with the Babylonians and he recorded their tradition, which is written in black and white and you may choose to believe it or not and turn a blind eye to it.

I don’t need to pray to Mary or any of the dead apostles. They we’re all indeed great people who answered Gods call and did the will of God and I love studying them, but that’s as far as I take it. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand your purpose.

And to make your point, without at the same time appearing to be a hypocrite, it is necessary for you to disregard the first half of Exodus 20:4, by saying that "shalt not make" doesn't mean "don't make".

If you are allowed to make an image of something in Heaven to look upon in rememberance, why can't others?

You have been repeatedly told that Catholics do not worship statues. That the statues serve merely as a focus of rememberance.

As to: "The use of images and other material things as a focus or help to worship denies who God is (Spirit)", are you by any chance denying that Jesus is both God and Man? Are you saying that Jesus is "only" Spirit?

Like I said, you are looking at superfical similarities, like the color purple, rather than the intent of those you judge.

I ain't buying it.

 

Ron --

You are GOOOOOOD!!

Yupper, pews do NOT belong in an Orthodox parish. It is not our custom nor tradition.

(Most people would still be scratching their heads wondering -- nice job!!!)

Brother Ed