The Catholics link to Idolatry from Ancient Baylon

Quoted by GraceSaves

I believe your fellow Catholic buddy will disagree with ya. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you not understand the difference between a saint, and a statue of a saint?

 

Jerry,

Brother, you did not make that connection the first time. You spoke of bowing down and posted a verse that had nothing to do with bowing down. Do not say something and then not post the evidence and then get mad at me when I point that out.

 

No, they are not.

A statue is a statue and a saint is a saint.

You are just looking silly here, guy.

Quit while you are behind and I'll just pretend you never even attempted this feeble excuse.

 

There's that superfical judgement again.

Are you claiming to read mens hearts?

 

GraceSaves,

Does that give you the right to call me a "liar"?

You can ask for my evidence before you call me a "liar",can you not?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

You know, Jerry, we are only doing that which we will be doing in Heaven once the veil of life is torn away by death.

The Blessed Mother will be honored by all for eternity. She is the first one to experience and benefit from the salvational work of Christ. She is the first to experience the fruits of resurrection (aside from the Lord of course), and she is the New Eve of the New Covenant.

And we will honor in Heaven those who have more glory and honor than we do. We will no doubt talk about and tell wonderful storie of their lives and what God did through them in their obedience.

Honoring the saints down here is just the start of what will go on in Heaven forever. We will love and honor each other as image bearers of the image of God.

 

GraceSaves,

If Rome does not teach the followers to "worship" Mary,why do we hear the Pope speaking of "Marian worship".The following is from the "offical" Vatican site:

At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to
understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community
... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ.("Vatican Information Service",May 7,1997).

http://www.cin.org/archives/cintuus/199705/0003.html

It seems to me that Rome speaks out of both sides of her mouth.At one moment she says that it is only the Lord Who should be worshipped,but then she turns around and speaks of "Marian worship" that is "based on the will of Christ".

And I do not believe that those who follow Rome are actually worshiping the "carved image" of Mary but instead they are worshiping Mary herself.

As Linsky said,"We worship God alone. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Him alone shall you adore. Him alone shall you bow down in front of because worship is for God and no other".

If those who follow Rome worships "God alone",why does the Pope speak of "Marian worship" and say that this worship is "based on the will of Christ"?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

I can tell you're all excited about this quote because you've posted it at least twice. This quote, which appears in exactly one source and is untraceable (AFAIK) to a confirmable source (like a video or audio tape), apparently holds more weight with you than all the books, documents and encyclicals which show that Catholics do not worship Mary.

Let's say we have 1000 sources that say that Catholics don't worship Mary, and 1 that say we do (and actually, that's not what it says. It simply uses the phrase "the authentic meaning of Marian worship," whatever the heck that might mean). So of course you jump up and down shouting "Catholics worship Mary!"

Well, have fun! Whatever floats your boat, as the saying goes. Me, I'll just keep being a bad Catholic and honor Mary without worshipping her.

 

AS for "honoring Mary without worshipping" her at her altars... lets take a look.

Worship at the altars of Mary - who is not only the Mother of our redeemer she IS our redeemer - as coredemptrix with Christ Himsefl.

Hold on! She has altars?? They pray to her at her altars?? They have someone in addition to God the Son to pray to as their redeemer??? Come on! Surely they would never say that ... would they?

Hmmm. Lets take a carefull look - and lets pay attention to "the details".

Quote to follow...

In Christ,

Bob

 

CoRedemptrix -

"With equal truth may it be also affirmed that, by the will of God, Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ, thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother....How grateful and magnificent a spectacle to see in the cities, and towns, and villages, on land and sea—wherever the Catholic
faith has penetrated—many hundreds of thousands of pious people uniting their praises and prayers with one voice and heart at every moment of the day, saluting Mary, invoking Mary, hoping everything through Mary." - Pope Leo XIII, Octobri Mense

"O Virgin most holy, none abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; none, O Mother of God, obtains salvation except through thee, none receives a gift from the throne of mercy except through thee." - Pope Leo XIII, Adiutricem Populi

"Mary suffered and, as it were, nearly died with her suffering Son; for the salvation of mankind she renounced her mother's rights and, as far as it depended on her, offered her Son to placate divine justice; so we may well say that she with Christ redeemed mankind." - Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia

"Mary's suffering [at Calvary], beside the suffering of Jesus, reached an intensity which can hardly be imagined from a human point of view but which was mysteriously and supernaturally fruitful for the Redemption of the world." - Pope John Paul II, Salvifici Doloris, no. 25

"Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, Oh Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother....we adore and praise the peerless richness of the sublime gifts with which God has filled you above every other mere creature, from the moment of conception until the day on which after your assumption into heaven. He crowned you Queen of the Universe. Oh crystal fountain of
faith, bathe our hearts with your heavenly perfume. Oh Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin which makes the soul detestable to God and the slave of hell. Oh well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cries which rise up from every heart in this year dedicated to you. Then tenderly, Oh Mary, cover our aching wound; convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and the oppressed. Comfort the poor and humble. Quench hatred,
sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity and protect the Holy Church. In your name resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that all are brothers...Receive, Oh sweet Mother our humble supplications and above all, obtain for us that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are beautiful Oh Mary. You are Glory Oh Mary. You are the joy, you are the Honor of
our people." - Pope Pius XII, celebration of the Marian Year in Rome, 1950

In Christ,

Bob

 

See my response on the other thread "Jesus is only Spirit?"

 

MikeS,

The source I quote is the "offical" Vatican source.Of course you do not like what is said there because it contradicts what the church leaders say to those who follow Rome in the USA.

But those of us who live in countries dominated by the church at Rome there is no question whatsoever that the followers of Rome do in fact "worship" Mary.And those who follow Rome in Mexico make no bones about the fact that they "worship" Mary.

But if you want more evidence,then please consider the following words of Pope Pius X,and his words here are considered to be "infallible" by Rome.Here Pius X puts the words of the Lord Jesus at "Matthew 15:8" (which is in regard to worshipping the Lord Jesus) into the mouth of Mary:

Let then crowds fill the churches - let solemn feasts be celebrated and public rejoicings be made: these are things eminently suited for enlivening our faith. But unless heart and will be added, they will all be empty forms, mere appearances of piety. At such a spectacle, the Virgin, borrowing the words of Jesus Christ, would address us with the just reproach: "This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matth. xv., 8).

17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them.("AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM"ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X; #16,17).

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Are you willing to argue that Pope Pius X is in error here because he does in fact speak of "worshipping Mary"?

Can you give me some words of someone else who is considered infallible where he says that those who follow Rome are not to "worship" Mary?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

GraceSaves,

If Rome does not teach the followers to "worship" Mary,why do we hear the Pope speaking of "Marian worship".The following is from the "offical" Vatican site:

At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to
understand the authentic meaning of Marian worship in the ecclesial community
... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ.("Vatican Information Service",May 7,1997).

http://www.cin.org/archives/cintuus/199705/0003.html

It seems to me that Rome speaks out of both sides of her mouth.At one moment she says that it is only the Lord Who should be worshipped,but then she turns around and speaks of "Marian worship" that is "based on the will of Christ".

And I do not believe that those who follow Rome are actually worshiping the "carved image" of Mary but instead they are worshiping Mary herself.

As Linsky said,"We worship God alone. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Him alone shall you adore. Him alone shall you bow down in front of because worship is for God and no other".

If those who follow Rome worships "God alone",why does the Pope speak of "Marian worship" and say that this worship is "based on the will of Christ"?

In His grace,--Jerry </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Jerry but the quote you give is not anything official. Not sure where CIN got it. Here is a link to the address from the official vatican website which is only vaguely identifiable as the one you posted the link to.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_07051997_en.html

Nice try though.

Blessings

 

Before making such a declarative statement, you should have validated your source.

The following is found at www.cin.org at the bottom of the page.


"Catholic Information Network (CIN) offers a free exchange of news, information and discussion, and is not an official organ of the Catholic Church."

CIN is clearly, by their own admission, not the "offical" Vatican site.

 

I said that this quote came from an "offical" Vatican site.Here are the words at that site:

"Each service consists primarily of pontifical acts and nominations, a summary of the Holy Father’s homilies and speeches, presentations and communications concerning pontifical documents and dicasteries of the Holy See, activities of the Congregations, Pontifical Councils, Synods, etc, and official statements issued by the Holy See Press Office".

http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/vis/documents/ns_vis_doc_20020711_test_en.html#start

But since the words from the Vatican Information Service are not enough for you,consider the following words that are attributed to Pope Pius X which are considered to be "infallible" by Rome.

Here Pius X puts the words of the Lord Jesus at "Matthew 15:8" (which is in regard to worshipping the Lord Jesus) into the mouth of Mary:

Let then crowds fill the churches - let solemn feasts be celebrated and public rejoicings be made: these are things eminently suited for enlivening our faith. But unless heart and will be added, they will all be empty forms, mere appearances of piety. At such a spectacle, the Virgin, borrowing the words of Jesus Christ, would address us with the just reproach: "This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matth. xv., 8).

17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them.("AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM"ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X; #16,17).

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Is that "offical" enough for you,thessalonian?

Would you care to comment on these words that are "Ex Cathedra"?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

"There are several degrees of this worship:

if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia (for the meaning and history of these terms see Suicer, Thesaurus ecclesiasticus, 1728). "

From the Catholic Encyclopedia at www.newadvent.org under the word "worship"

 

trying2understand

I said that the words I posted came from an "offical" Vatican site.And the words that this site does make it clear that thise "service" is an "offical" Vatican site:

The Vatican Information Service is a news service, founded in the Holy See Press Office, that provides information about the Magisterium and the pastoral activities of the Holy Father and the Roman Curia...official statements issued by the Holy See Press Office.

Do you not believe that the "Holy See Press Office" is not an offical Vatican site?

However,the following words of Pope Pius X make it plain that Rome teaches that Mary is "worshipped".These words of his are considered to be "infallible" by Rome,and you can see that Pope Pius puts the words of the Lord Jesus Christ into the mouth of Mary,and these words are clearly in reference to "worship":

Let then crowds fill the churches - let solemn feasts be celebrated and public rejoicings be made: these are things eminently suited for enlivening our faith. But unless heart and will be added, they will all be empty forms, mere appearances of piety. At such a spectacle, the Virgin, borrowing the words of Jesus Christ, would address us with the just reproach: "This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me" (Matth. xv., 8).

17. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them.("AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM",ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X; #16,17).

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

Can you give me any "Ex Cathedra" statements of Rome where it says that Mary is not supposed to be worhipped?

In His grace,--Jerry