Baptismal regeneration

Originally posted by Carson Weber:

If we follow your logic, preaching the Gospel is a "work" just as much as having faith is a "work". So, to view baptism as a "work" and these other things not as a "works" is to be inconsistent.

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I think you deliberatley like to make games out of words, playing semantics. Yes, preaching, praying, giving, tithing, baptizing, etc., are all works. Please note what a work is: it is something you do, something tangible, measurable. In preaching, one knows where he is preaching, to whom, to how many, how many times, etc. The same can be said about praying--how often, how long, where, in what place, etc. About giving: how much, how often, where, to whom, etc. These are works--things that are done and are measurable.

Is faith like that. Faith is not a work, is it? It is intangible, cannot be measured. It is trust or confidence. I accept God's free grace by faith, that is with a child like confidence that my Heavenly Father will bestow His love on me in the same way, and even greater, than my earthly father has done. That is not work. I have trusted, I have had confidence, I have been the recipient of, (grace), BUY, I have not worked. Faith in no way is a work.

When Jesus said in John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

He used the word "works" as a play on words. Believing or faith is not a work. Jesus by saying that it is the only work that you can do, in reality is saying that you cannot work your way to Heaven. This is in total agreement with what Paul said in Eph.2:8,9.

For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.
DHK

DHK:
Jesus said belief is a work of God we must do. John 6:28,29. Furthermore, if one is accepting evidence for his faith, by definition he is working. However, I do not use meriam- webster to determine the meaning of words in the Bible. I will let the context determine them.
It is impossible to reconcile the word work in the Bible unless one uses the context. There are several types of works mentioned in the New Testament. They are distinct. There are works of righteousness. Titus 3:5. Works of the Law. Gal. 2:11. Works of the flesh. Gal. 5:19,20. Works of merit. Eph. 2:8,9. Works of belief. Romans 16:26, John 6:28,29. No rational person would equate works of the flesh with works of faith. No rational person would equate works of the Old Law with works of righteousness. However, unless one uses context to understand their respective meanings you would accept they all mean the same thing. I reject this idea.
The Bible does not define baptism as a meritorious work. If so, where?
The new testament does not teach baptism as a meritorious work. You can search the divine volume for a month of Sundays and not find that passage. The idea that baptism is a meritorious work is an invention of the mind of men.

A young boy once asked his father, "What baseball player has the most home runs?" The father realized at this point he could say any name he wanted and his son would believe it. My son trusts me so much that what ever I say he will believe. The man however said to his son, "Hank Aaron". His son said thanks and trusting his father fully he knew that Hank Aaron had the most home runs, the young boy had no doubts. He simply had so much faith in his father that he believed him.

Christian friends, that is what we are talking about. The young boy did not do a work, there is no way in that example, without making silly putty out of it, that you can stretch the boys faith in his father to be a work. Simple faith and simple belief is what God requires and yes Frank, works WILL result because of the thankfulness of the cleansed heart, in fact I would say that the "works" are the proof of the cleansed heart.

In Christian love,
Brian

[ January 28, 2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Faith is not a work, is it?"

Oh no, but it is. We know who is having faith, we know when they are having faith, and we can see them having the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1:5; 16:26). In fact, most "Born-Again" Christians can tell you right down to the hour and minute when they were "Saved" once-and-for-all. That's how tangible this work is.

So, what's the solution? I propose that you are misdefining "work", and what Paul means when he says "works of the Law" (ergos nomos).

You also admitted that preaching the Gospel is a work. Well, if no one preaches the Gospel (or writes a tract, or distributes Scripture), then no one can come to faith. So, those who come to faith are being saved through works: the works listed above. Again, do you see how your logic fails?

God bless,

Carson

[ January 28, 2003, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

Carson, The works of which you speak are on the wrong side of the equation. In speaking of faith not being a work we must stay on the receiving part of the equation. Also, what did you make of my above example?

Hope you are well!

Don't forget to study a little between posts

In Christ,
Brian

Hi Brian,

Thank you, I am doing very well.. drinking my V8 (literally, not literarily), working out, taking my vitamins, and staying away from fatty foods every day. I hope you're well, as well, no pun intended.

You wrote, "The works of which you speak are on the wrong side of the equation.

Right, and I would say that works of charity are on the wrong side of equation right alongside preaching the Gospel, having cognitive faith, and receiving baptism.

When Paul says that we are saved by faith, apart from "works", he has a particular audience in mind who adhere to a form of Jewish ritual presumption (i.e. the Judaizers). They believe that, to be saved, one must become a Jew by committing to circumcision, Kosher laws, Calendar observances, etc. Paul contrasts all of this with the life of faith that begins in baptism and is lived out in the power of the Holy Spirit, which entails works of charity in obedience to the father, and includes BOTH Gentiles and Jews.

Don't forget to study a little between posts

Thanks for the reminder. I just finished outlining Familiaris Consortio (1981 Post-Synodal Apostolic Exortation by JPII) and JPII's 1994 Letter to Families as well as a 15 page outline of Fides et Ratio, an amazing Encyclical written by our Holy Father in 1998 that demonstrates our need to recapture the Medieval Synthesis of faith and reason, nature and grace.

God bless,

Carson

Brian:
I believe God provided the right info. He does not lie. Moreover, I accept his word because of the evidence which God demands for our faith. John 20:30,31, Mark 16:17-20, Romans 10:17.
I could give examples of people who trusted another and were betrayed. What does Hank Aaron have to do with having a biblical faith.
Is it possible for you to use the BIBLE to prove your position? My faith requirtes BIBLICAL TRUTH or EVIDENCE, not a story of one blindly believing the word of another. There are a number of salesmen who have received ill gotten gain by using the ole " Just trust me" line. I like what Paul said much better in I Thes. 5:21, " Prove all things hold fast that which is good." " All SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction ,instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect througly furnished unto every good work." II Tim. 3:16,17. I prefer God's way.

Frank writes:
"""I could give examples of people who trusted another and were betrayed. What does Hank Aaron have to do with having a biblical faith.
Is it possible for you to use the BIBLE to prove your position? My faith requirtes BIBLICAL TRUTH or EVIDENCE, not a story of one blindly believing the word of another."""

Wow Frank, you seem to be edgy, you Ok? I say that in kindness, not sarcastically. It is the social worker in me coming out. Private mail me if you have something I can pray for you about or just need a place to vent. I mean that

Anyway, The OT and NT have many many parables in them, used to prick the heart and make a point. I use them because it is a natural means of communication for me. OK, I admit it it I am jsut pretty "simple" minded and it helps me understand better myself the message that God gives in His Word. Anyway, being a preacher I am sure you use them as well. Look at my story again, it has many neat elements to it. More then I even intended when I made it up. Take care,

In Christian Love,
Brian

Hi Carson, Thanks for the post. Glad to hear you are taking care of the body(temple) God has given to you. When you hit 40 like me you will be glad you took care of yourself, I wish I did some cardio-vascular stuff as I have no endurance when playing with my kids anymore. I do push-ups and sit-ups every other night to keep a little bit toned. I can do over a hundred push-ups at one time. (I do 3 sets and my first set I stop at 95 but could probably do 120 realistically). I tell my my wife for 40 year old people I probably am in the top 10% of the world for push-ups. I don't know if that is true but it sounds good when I say it to her

Anyway, The way I see it is that Faith is the only thing on the side of the equation that has to do with salvation and faith is no work, as I think my Hank Aaron story expresses pretty well. Take care, It is always a pleasure to hear what you have to say

In Christ our Lord,
Brian

[ January 29, 2003, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
Hi DHK,

You wrote, "Faith is not a work, is it?"

Oh no, but it is. We know who is having faith, we know when they are having faith, and we can see them having the "obedience of faith" (Rom 1:5; 16:26). In fact, most "Born-Again" Christians can tell you right down to the hour and minute when they were "Saved" once-and-for-all. That's how tangible this work is.

Click to expand...

You seem to be very confused on this faith issue Carson. Let me give you a couple of examples to illustrate the difference. The first one is Biblical in the sense that it is prayer.
How often do you pray each day? When you pray at any set time how much time do you spend in prayer? How much time do you spend in prayer in total throughout the whole day? And just to be specific, I am talking about real intercession; I am not speaking about just uttering a prayer while driving down the street, or getting stuck somewhere and crying out: "Lord help me!" Those don't count. How often do you pray, spend time in prayer? Those are things that you can objectively measure. It is work that you do.

Faith is not a work. It is more like an attitude, and it immeasurable. Just as I have faith or trust in my Heavenly Father my daughter has faith in me. How often? All the time. 100% Even if I discipline her, she still trusts me as her father, that I will not disown her, disinherit her. She has an implicit trust in me that I love her. Her trust in me CANNOT be measured. Faith cannot be measured. Her trust in me is not a work. Her obedience in doing the dishes, or cleaning up her room, etc are works. Her trust in me in no way can be classified as a work. The more she knows me the more she trusts me. The more we know God, the more faith in God we have. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. That is how you obtain faith, by getting to know God through the Word of God. It is given to you as you get to know God. It is not a work, and in no way can be classified as a work. Obedience to God result in works. Faith is trusting in God, which results in works.
DHK

Hi DHK,

It looks like you've divided what Paul has united.

You wrote, "Obedience to God result in works. Faith is trusting in God, which results in works.", while Paul simply calls the thesis of Romans:

"the obedience of faith" (Rom 1:5; 16:26)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Gal 5:6)

It looks like Paul hasn't hopelessly divided charity and faith, as you have.

Oh wait, Paul did separate faith and love in part of his corpus of writings:

"if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing" (1 Cor 13:2)

God bless,

Carson

[ January 29, 2003, 11:35 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

Hi Carson, you seem to ignore what has been said about faith and works. I am sure we have been over it and yet you do not acknowledge what is said. (hope that didn't sound harsh as that was not the intention )It just happens I did a lesson at our JV AWANA group last night that dealt with this. The example is someone on a sports team. A person can say they play on the GB Packers. What is the proof they are on the Packers? They are at the practices and at the games. If someone says they are on the Packers but is never at a practice and never goes to a game then we can say they surely are not on the Packers. The "proof" we are on "God's team" (corny I know but it worked OK with 11-13 year olds) is that we practice and are at the games, that is, we do the "good works" God created us to do. Our lives will show God if we are on His team. Not perfectly of course, as that is reserved for the day we see Jesus face to face. Ok, you see where I am going. Carson, even if you disagree please acknowledge that an attempt to explain Pauls words, that you referred to, and the book of James has been made. Take care and I hope you are well.

Your friend in Christ,
Brian

Hi Brian,

You wrote, "The "proof" we are on "God's team" is that we practice and are at the games, that is, we do the "good works" God created us to do."

But, the Bible doesn't say that our good works are merely "proof" of the faith that justifies us apart from it's working in love. It says that our good works are so integral to faith, that we are actually justified by our faith working itself out in charity.

That's how James 2:24 fits hand in glove with Catholic soteriology, and Sola Fide advocates have to jump through hoops when they come to this verse by coming to conclusions foreign to the text such as "Oh, but James is talking about Justification before men, not about justification before God," which cleary impose Sola Fide soteriology upon Scripture.

God bless,

Carson

Carson:
Excellent post on faith and love. The connection is critical to understanding justification. Although we differ on the all sufficiency of the New Testament, I would like to state I have NEVER appealed to the justification before men and God rationalization. If one examines Romans 4, and the book of James as it pertains to, in particular Abraham, this dichotomy about justification before God and Men is not taught.

Frank and Carson, Perhaps you two are just too intelligent for your own good. You miss the main thing here. We can't justify ourselves to God. God is all knowing, all powerful, well, all everything. He already knows if we are His, we can't justify ourselves to Him. He sees the heart directly ( we can't prove anything to him). Men cannot see eachothers hearts therefore they see the tangible, that is, the good works and seeing those good works they see a shining light and when they see that shining light they glorify God. Don't get caught up in a theology that dimishes the power of God. Anyway, I have never seen a scripture verse that conflicts with this position, provided God is seen as the complete power. Hope that clarified and simplified why many of us here on the board believe justification is before men.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[ January 30, 2003, 05:11 PM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Hi Brian,

You wrote, "Don't get caught up in a theology that dimishes the power of God."

The supernatural charity manifested through our will is precisely the power of God. The Catholic Gospel is powerful, effective, and life-changing. If it weren't for the power of God, then our charity would not merit eternal life.. because, in the end, it isn't our charity, but the charity of Christ, who lives in us.

Catechism of the Catholic Church #2011:

The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their meirt before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace: "After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone ... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself. (St. Therese of Lisieux, 'Act of Offering' in Story of a Soul, tr. John Clarke (Washington Dc: ICS, 1981), 277.)"

St. Therese the Little Flower, pray for us, that we might become as little children.

God bless,

Carson

[ January 30, 2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

Brian:
I do not diminish the power of God. I acknowledge his greatness in transforming man and using him for the most important work of all, teaching the gospel to the lost. Mat. 28:18-20, Luke 19:10. When one preaches the truth he is not preaching himself but the power of God to save. II Cor.4:5. It is God's power that works through us. II Cor. 4:7;6:7. Men are justiifed by God's will and God's way. James 1:18,21;2:21-24, Romans 4, when men obey his will and his way. Hebrews 5:8,9.

Hi Frank, Hope this day finds you well . The question here is what does God see when he looks at us. Does he need to judge us by our works and pretend he does not see straight into the depth of our hearts? The answer is no. We can't hide behind good works. God knows it all and sees the whole picture. When I said you and Carson diminish God's power I was referring to the fact that you both think that the "works" we do are part of the justification process. They are not. We are justified by God when he forgives our Sin, when we place our trust by faith in His one and only Son. Beyond that we don't need to prove ourselves to God over and over. The good works we do are created by God and we do them in and for God's glory and they are done much of the time to show God's love to others. We were created for "good works". God created both. Our works, as I said in my other post are the "light" seen by others. That verse is clear guys. Let your light shine before OTHERS so THEY may see your good works and Glorify God(paraphrase but you know the verses anyway). We do the "good works" for others to see, not God. Why is that so? because God sees the heart directly. C & F, If you respond to this don't go off into other things, directly refute what I said, please. Thanks.

In Christ,
Brian

[ January 31, 2003, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

Hi Brian,

You asked, "Does he need to judge us by our works and pretend he does not see straight into the depth of our hearts?"

How can the heart be separated from charity? They aren't, and I don't try to create this dichotomy.

When I said you and Carson diminish God's power I was referring to the fact that you both think that the "works" we do are part of the justification process. They are not.

Brian, come on now. You know what the Scripture says: James 2:24 - "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

"and not by faith alone" - are we justified before men by our faith? Of course not. Nowhere in the context of this passage anywhere does James speak about our right relationship with other men. He is speaking about our justification before God, and that is so clear that it behooves me to slap you on the wrist when I see you completely nullifying the Word of God in order to warp it around your conception of justification.

We are justified by God when he forgives our Sin, when we place our trust by faith in His one and only Son.

Yes, we are. That is called filial adoption. But, when God looks at us, he doesn't just see Christ covering us. He sees Christ IN us..

Col 1:21 - "Christ in you, the hope of glory"

..to the extent that we have put Christ on. We have been given the power to become children of God (John 1:12).

Beyond that we don't need to prove ourselves to God over and over.

It isn't about proving ourselves. It isn't about "us". We could't prove ourselves even if we wanted to. We can only be accepted in the sight of the Father through Jesus Christ and his grace. Don't you understand?

The good works we do are created by God

Amen! And not only the works, but our very doing them are created by God!

Listen carefully to Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." (Gal 1:20)

and we do them in and for God's glory

Amen! Our very salvation is for the glory of God.

and they are done much of the time to show God's love to others.

Amen!

Our works, as I said in my other post are the "light" seen by others. That verse is clear guys. Let your light shine before OTHERS so THEY may see your good works and Glorify God(paraphrase but you know the verses anyway).

Amen! But, I wouldn't say that they are your works. I would say that they are God's works in you. If you think that you can let your light shine as if you have a light apart from Christ, then you are wrong. We only have Christ to shine from within us; he is our power, our light, our guide, our truth.

in Christ,

Carson

Hi Carson, Thanks for your post and sorry about the delay in response. I agree with much of your last post. We do see justification different and perhaps one reason is the meaning of the word justify. Here are 4 meanings from a dictionary. I must confess I was tempted to only include the couple that helped my argument but I could not do that as it would not have been honest. Here they are:

Justify (a.) To prove or show to be just; to vindicate; to maintain or defend as conformable to law, right, justice, propriety, or duty.

Justify (a.) To pronounce free from guilt or blame; to declare or prove to have done that which is just, right, proper, etc.; to absolve; to exonerate; to clear.

Justify (a.) To treat as if righteous and just; to pardon; to exculpate; to absolve.

Justify (a.) To prove; to ratify; to confirm.

This was the order from the dictionary and I am pretty sure is the order of most used to less used, but I could be wrong about that. You see Carson, there is a "prove" element to this word. My reading of the verse in James tells me that works are the showing of faith. If you have saving faith your "works will show or "prove" that. Does God need proof? No, for as I said He sees the heart. Do men need proof? Yes, if they don't see tangible works how then will they give glory to God for what they see in us. The Bible teaches clearly we are to show love by works. This of course is why scripture says What good is it to tell some one, go now and be warm but not give them a coat.(paraphrase) The works (faiths actions - are what would draw someone to Christ, they are what "proves" to others to whom we belong. Saying we have faith, is meaningless without works. Works in no way save though as shown by the verse, that has been used already (We are saved by grace through faith and not of works.) The works we were created by God and follow faith. Think about it, Did God create the unbeliever to do good works for him? No, only believers are created for Gods good works. Hope that clarifys things some. I like the way James puts it a few verses before the verse you used. Note that this is BEFORE what you said and sets the context up for v. 24

James 2:18] Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.


In Christian Love,
Brian

[ February 03, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]