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Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Carson Weber, Jul 16, 2003.

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  1. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    I will be enjoying a little vacation time in the Lone Star State. Friday morning, I fly out of Pittsburgh to Dallas then to San Antonio (named after St. Anthony of Padua, Italy, the renowned Franciscan evangelist preacher). I will be staffing Aggie Awakening - a college retreat in College Station, TX Fri-Sat where my sister will be a retreater. Please keep her - Crystal - in your prayer, that she is truly touched by the Lord and that the grace of God may bear great fruit in her life.

    The next week, my father and I will be hitting the exact spot where Hurricane Claudette struck the other day for some serious saltwater bay fishing in our boat in the Corpus Christi bay (named after the Eucharist, the Body of Christ). I'll be taking a distance learning course while at home from Dr. Mark Miravalle of http://www.voxpopuli.org on Xtn Spirituality (*yummy*), which covers St. Teresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Terese of Lisieux, St. Augustine, the Desert Fathers, St. Louis de Montfort, and others.

    Aside from that, we'll be redoing the menu boards at in my Father's cafe - http://www.flagstop.com - spending a week down at South Padre Island near the border of Mexico with the entire family fishing and beachcombing - as well as tubing down freshwater rivers that wind through the Texas Hill Country. Ahhhh... the life of a Texan!

    Keep safe, be holy, love one another, and pray for me.

    P.S. I met David Currie tonight at Franciscan University's Applied Biblical Studies conference. He's the author of these two texts. The first text was one of the first Catholic books I ever read other than the Bible, the first of a long line!
    </font>
     
    #1 Carson Weber, Jul 16, 2003
  2. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Carson, can't wait to read them. They are on my list right after Flavel's Works, Brooks' Works, and my fourth re-reading of Schaff's history. I should get to them about the time you retire...
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Have fun in Texico
     
    #2 Major B, Jul 16, 2003
  3. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Carson Weber,

    I too, enjoy fishing in the Pocono Mountains; there is not too much more exciting than having your pole bend and the wonder of what might be on the other end. It sounds like your hours will be filled for some time.

    While you are in Texas, stop at Dallas Theological Seminary and see the multiple hundreds of students that are getting taught the truth about Christ returning for His church as noted in I Thessalonians 4:17 which theologians called the rapture of the church. It will not be a secret rapture because the Lord will return with the shout and the voice of the archangel will be heard, and his trumpet will have a distinct sound. Jesus will appear at cloud level and will take His people into Heaven; but about seven years later He will be returning with those same people and will set His feet down on the Mount of Olives. [Zechariah 14:4,9,17; Revelation 19:11] He calls His people ' . . . the armies which were in Heaven.'

    May our Lord's richest blessing be on you, your father, sister and all those who you love.
     
    #3 Ray Berrian, Jul 17, 2003
  4. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    Interestingly enough, at the rapture, the bible does get left behind because there is no need of it for those who are raptured. They will be in the very presence of the "LIVING WORD OF GOD", Jesus, the Savior, that wonderful Bridegroom.
     
    #4 Yelsew, Jul 17, 2003
  5. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    Enjoy your time, Carson! I look forward to your return to the BB. [​IMG]
     
    #5 BrianT, Jul 17, 2003
  6. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Thank you for the kind words Brian.

    As for the Rapture, it will happen; there's no doubt of that, and there will be an Antichrist who will come from within the temple (the Greek word used by Paul refers to the Church; he doesn't use the one that refers to the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem), and there will be a Tribulation. Oh yes, Catholics do believe in the Rapture, which will occur at the one and only second advent of Jesus Christ when he comes to judge the living and the dead.

    During his workshop on the Rapture this morning, David Currie showed us the reasons why he went from being a pre-mil, pre-trib Rapture believing advocate in seminary (he even taught college courses on the Rapture) to a belief in the historical position of the Church on the Rapture. He went through Daniel the Prophet, The Gospel of Matthew, Paul's Epistles - esp. 1 Thes and 2 Thes, and The Book of Revelation, showing us the fallacies of Darby's novel rapture theology and how they contradict Scripture and make grand assumptions, which are not in Scripture. He also told some amazing historical stories concerning the Fall of Jerusalem under Titus, which left the room silent enough to hear a pin drop. He showed how Daniel's prophecy entailing the three time periods fit hand-in-glove with Salvation History, leading right up to 70 A.D. He showed how the covenant spoken of by Daniel is the New Covenant, the ending of Jewish sacrifice occurred with Christ's sacrifice, and how there is not an unmentioned 2,000+ year time gap in Daniel's Prophecy, which is an assumption that obliterates the cohesion of the Biblical text.

    I was given the fortunate opportunity of meeting Mr. Currie in person and had him autograph my old copy of Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, which he originally wrote as a letter to his father, explaining the reasons for his unexpected conversion.

    Also, I listened to Jeff Cavins speak on the Story (the Creed "slash" Salvation History as outlined in Sacred Scripture), and our incorporation into that story by means of the sacraments - a splendid presentation! For everyone's information, Jeff left the Catholic Church as a teenager in anger, became an Assembly of God pastor for a number of years, and eventually returned with fire and zeal as a Catholic speaker, teacher, and evangelist. He wrote his conversion story in My Life on the Rock: a Rebel Returns to His Faith &lt;-- click to see it.

    [ July 17, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]
     
    #6 Carson Weber, Jul 17, 2003
  7. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    I will miss you while you are gone. I always learn a lot from your posts. Have a great time!


    God Bless
     
    #7 Kathryn, Jul 17, 2003
  8. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    Godspeed Carson, enjoy the R&R [​IMG]
     
    #8 Brother Adam, Jul 17, 2003
  9. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Carson Weber,

    Here are some thoughts for your reflection during your time away from us.

    There were more than two temples in the past. The major ones were Solomon's Temple and Herod's Temple, but "Zondervan Pictoral Bible Dictionary speaks also of Ezekiel's Temple and also the restoration temple of Zerubbabel.

    The next Temple that will be built will be the Great Tribulation Temple and the last one in human history will be the Millennial Temple.

    II Thessalonians 2:4 indicates that the Antichrist will ' . . . sit in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.' The Greek word for temple is not church but is the word, 'naos or nahos' and according to Dr. James Strong it can mean, {from the primitive word meaning to dwell, a fane, shrine, or temple. Even if one uses the term church the Antichrist will sit in this religious site and claim to be Christ during the soon coming time called the Great Tribulation. [Matthew 24:21]

    In Zechariah chapter fourteen we are dealing with the Millennial Temple and in 14:20,21 the prophet speaks of ' . . . the Lord's House' which happens to be in Jerusalem. This Hebrew word for house is 'bahyith' signifying either a palace or Temple. Every pot in the Jerusalem area will have written on it, 'Holiness Unto The Lord of Hosts.' [vs. 21] It is also found in this verse that animal sacrifices will be re-instituted during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. Messianic Jews remind us that this will be done by way of looking back on the crucifixion of Christ, just as we receive the sacrament of bread and wine as a reminder of what Jesus has done for us on the Cross.

    Protestant and Catholic Amillennialists have to use the concept of church and not Temple because they refuse to believe that Jesus will reign over the entire world [Micah 5:2; Zechariah 14:4,9, 17] at a future time and will establish His theocracy in Jerusalem. For those entrapped in this theology, Jesus will never 'sit on the throne of his father, David.
     
    #9 Ray Berrian, Jul 17, 2003
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Yo, Carson, I've read Currie's book and it is a genuinely sad tale. It was given to me by a dear friend that was abused by hyper-fundamentalism (with legalism, pressure, conformity, autocratic leaders).

    Sadly, he was complaining about the exact same things in the Catholic family (legalism, pressure, conformity, autocratic leaders) and was talking of moving toward Eastern rites (Greek Orthodox as I recall).

    Abuses of the system should not drive either our theology or practice, imho.
     
    #10 Dr. Bob, Jul 17, 2003
  11. Carson Weber

    Carson Weber <img src="http://www.boerne.com/temp/bb_pic2.jpg">

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    Hi Dr. Bob,

    You wrote, "Yo, Carson, I've read Currie's book and it is a genuinely sad tale."

    I wouldn't expect a different response from a true blue believing Fundamentalist. [​IMG] Of course, from the other side of the fence (i.e., from within the Kingdom), I take the opposite viewpoint.

    Hi Ray,

    You wrote, "Protestant and Catholic Amillennialists have to use the concept of church and not Temple"

    And, accordingly, I would say that Premillennialists have to use the concept of the Jerusalem Temple and not Church.

    If you're truly concerned with what the Bible teaches apart from what any man's opinion is, then I'm sure you'd be open to different interpretations of Scripture, and I'm sure that you consider the possibility that you may be wrong with regard to the Pre-Trib, Pre-Mil Rapture theory. I, on the other hand, do care what man's opinion is apart from what the Bible says because I recognize an authority apart from the Bible (i.e., the authentic Magisterium of the Apostolic Church).

    With that said, consider Currie's work in your ongoing investigation of truth, considering the fact that your interpretation could change tomorrow, and the tenets of your faith could change right along with that interpretation of yours.

    Consider that in Matthew 24:34, Jesus caps off his mini-Apocalyptic warning with "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away till all these things take place." and thereafter, in verse 36 and following, Jesus describes his second and final advent, of which it is said: "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only."

    Those events described before 24:34 occurred at the Destruction of Jerusalem under Titus Flavius Vespansianus.

    Also, consider that in the New Testament, there are two Greek words for Temple. The first denotes the Jerusalem temple or other physical temples. That is {hee-er-os'} as in Mt 4:5 or Mt 12:5. Paul refers to the Church throughout his epistles as a temple with the Greek term {nah-os'}. This is the Greek word used in 2 Thes 2:4. See, for example, Eph 2:20f:

    "the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple {nah-os'} in the Lord".

    Of course, this isn't the thread to be debating this issue. Perhaps you should start a Rapture thread and others can play along. I must catch some sleep before my flight home tomorrow.
     
    #11 Carson Weber, Jul 17, 2003
  12. BrianT

    BrianT New Member

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    If you look for the word 'naos' in other places, you'll see that *every other time* Paul uses it, it refers to the church: 1 Cor 3:16, 1 Cor 3:17 (twice), 1 Cor 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, Eph 2:21. Also, twice in Acts it says God will not dwell in a temple (naos) made with hands (Acts 7:48 and 17:24), so a physical temple could not be "of God" as it is described in 2 Thess 2:4. Even Rev 3:12 says "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple (naos) of my God..." Just something to think about... ;)

    Carson, thanks for those book titles. I'll put them on my "to read" list. [​IMG]
     
    #12 BrianT, Jul 18, 2003
  13. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Brian T,

    You bring up a valid point.

    WE are the Temple of God!

    The antichrist is not going to physically enthrone the 'rebuilt' temple of Solomon that was built where the dome of the rock 'once stood'. :rolleyes:

    That's hollywood and Tim LaHaye!

    The spirit of antichrist is already at work, already declaring himself to be God, and he is in the temple of God. A MAN of God.

    Using a MAN of God to speak.

    God Bless,
    Kelly

    AKA the Derailer [​IMG]
     
    #13 3AngelsMom, Jul 18, 2003
  14. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian New Member

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    Kelly,

    You said, 'WE are the Temple of God!'

    I will be sixty years old this month, and knew this much that you said above when I was twelve years old. How long have you known that you are the 'temple of God?' [I Cor. 3:16] I say it respectfully toward you, but you need to study the Bible more carefully and you will learn more than all of the theologians put together.

    You said, 'The antichrist is not going to physically enthrone the 'rebuilt' temple of Solomon that was built where the dome of the rock 'once stood.'

    The orthodox Jews and/or Hasidic Jewish believers already for years now have had the cornerstone for the rebuilding of the Temple which will be prostituted by the Antichrist in the future. They also have, in hand, all of the Temple furnishings made for the purpose of ministry in said future Temple. Where they build it is not as important as knowing the facts that they will one day build it for their Messiah.

    You said, 'That's hollywood and Tim LaHaye!'

    Tim LaHaye and men like Dr. Van Impe may make practical the meaning of the end times and the building of the Temple, but at least they follow Biblical eschatology. Dr. Van Impe is an exceptionally brilliant expositor of truth and is called 'the walking Bible,' because he can quote and explain vast numbers of Scriptures. Other men like Drs. Walvoord, J. Dwight Pentecost, Thomas Ice, Timothy Demy and Randall Price are the best expositors of end times events. I have not read Tim LaHaye's novels but if one person gets to Heaven because of his writing, I think you will agree, it will have been worth it for him to have written his books.

    You said, 'The spirit of antichrist is already at work, already declaring himself to be God, and he is in the temple of God. A MAN of God.'

    The Apostle John knew even while he was alive on the Isle of Patmos that some people were filled with the 'spirit of Antichrist' as duly noted in his epistles. [I John 4:3] Anyone who does not believe that Jesus was/is Divine and that He walked on the face of this earth about 2,000 years ago also has the 'spirit of antichrist living in their souls.' [I John 4:3]

    The Antichrist is not yet in the Temple; you feel that he is in the Temple. Where is this Temple? One day he will personally sit in the Temple and declare himself to be God. [II Thessalonians 2:4] Revelation 13:18 tells us that the ultimate Antichrist will be a man and that he will demand worship and to refuse to take the 'mark of the beast'/Antichrist in the 'right hand' or the 'forehead' will insure those people's physical death. At a future time, millions of believers will die for their faith on this earth that we call our world. It is no slip of the tongue when God speaks about the future Great Tribulation. This man, the Antichrist is going to make Hitler and Saddam appear mild in temper in comparison with this unprecidented, tyrant called 'the man of sin.' [II Thessalonians 2:3d] Thus, the verse says, 'These are they who came out of Great Tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.' [Revelation 7:14]

    Also, the vision of Ezekiel as to the Millennial Temple is documented in Ezekiel chapters forty through forty-eight. All of the previous Temples have had the ark of the covenant. In this passage you will come to realize that the ark of the covenant is not to be found. The reason is because during the Millennium Christ will be there on the throne in Jerusalem and there will be no need of the ark of the covenant. [Ezekiel 48:35c; Zechariah 14:9 & 17]

    Kelly, blessings on you and your angels.
     
    #14 Ray Berrian, Jul 19, 2003
  15. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Why do you ask such silliness? I don't remember. I guess the first time I read that passage. Which, I don't remember when that was! I have been studying the Bible for most of my life. I honestly don't know when I first read it.

    Yes, and if they built it, it would NOT be the Temple of GOD because the Bible is TOTALLY clear that the Temple of God is His Church (the people), and if the Jews were to start sacrificing again, it would be a blatant disregard for Jesus, the FINAL Sacrifice. It wouldn't be a Temple of God.

    [​IMG] That's really funny. Tim Lahaye is a false prophet. He is a deceiver and an antichrist. There is no secret rapture. There is no 7 years of tribulation. And NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE will be saved after the Rapture of the Church! (mainly because there won't be anyone alive to save)
    Ok, now I am starting to wonder if you are serious. I only have one comment to that. So does the devil. What did he use to tempt Christ? The Word of God. He knows EVERY WORD. I know a man who can quote many verses, word for word, but cannot remember the references. His wife always does, but she cannot ever remember the verses word for word. But that, alone, does not make me believe every word they say! JVI is demon controlled, as far as I am concerned, and you would be wise to not ever let him spew his falsehoods at you again.
    I have no idea who any of those people are, but you can be sure I will look into it. But based on your respect for two of the most devious false prophets of our time, I doubt I will agree with any of them.
    I don't agree. Want to know why? Because there will be at least 10,000,000 people who will be destroyed by the brightness of CHRISTS coming who read his books and just KNEW they would have a second chance after the secret rapture! THOSE people, are NOT worth the 'one' that may have come to Christ after reading his trash.
    That's a whole other ball of wax. But since you brought it up, I'd like to see the verses that state that the spirit of antichrist is one who 'denies the divinity' of Christ.

    You agreed with me at the opening of your post that WE are the Temple of God. Are you saying you DON'T really think that now? My opinion is that he is operating through the Papacy, declaring themselves 'God on Earth'.
    And he is. The Temple of God is not something made with hands.
    Ok, you have two very mixed up issues here. The 'Beast' is not the Antichrist. They are not 'a man'. The Beast is IDENTIFIED by the NUMBER of 'A man'. The key there is that the MAN is the identifier of the Beast, he, is not the beast. A beast is a government/nation. The HEAD is the man with the number. And the number, itself, will be a statement of 'making himself god'.
    I agree, but there is no biblical evidence that this time of tribulation will last exactly 7 years preceded by a secret rapture and followed by a glorious appearing!
    He already has!!! [​IMG] The spirit of antichrist was at work in Johns time. Who put him on the Isle of Patmos? THAT is who he was talking about. ROME. Who took over Rome? The Papacy. It is STILL there to this day. (the spirit of antichrist, that is)
    Yes, because if you are alive when this period of probation closes, and the beast takes power over the world AGAIN, you can be assured, you will DIE. Unless you like the Beast, and you don't think there is anything wrong with the Beast, or that it isn't that much different from what you believe so it must be ok. Then you won't die, you'll take the mark, which won't be a tatoo, or chip. It isn't as simple as you want it to be. You must be wise as serpents. Harmless as doves.
    That has to be the first time I have ever heard that! What denomination are you? Ok, looked it over, and I honestly don't see where you are getting that Ezekiels vision is about the Millenium. Where did it say that?
    Thank you. Blessings to you as well. I must go put my angels to bed now. :D

    Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ,
    Kelly
     
    #15 3AngelsMom, Jul 19, 2003
  16. thessalonian

    thessalonian New Member

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    Carson,

    You are in my prayers. Many blessings.
     
    #16 thessalonian, Jul 19, 2003
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