The Purpose Driven Life

Your kidding, right? The misapplication of Romans 9 ring a bell?</font>[/QUOTE] That isn't proof that calvinists have done anything. Just because you would rather the words not say what they say isn't an indictment of calvinism. You'll have to do much better than that.

The fact that you disagree with an interpretation does not warrant the accusation you made. At this point, you have done little more than acknowledge the accusation was without foundation. IOW's, you have falsely accused the brethren.

You're right about that since these aren't the only options. Man was created at God's pleasure. Man is fully and totally responsible for his own destruction.


THIS IS WHAT CALVINISM TEACHES. It does not teach that God is responsible for man's destruction. However just like any system that accepts God's omniscience, we recognize that God does ordain the lives of people who He knows will reject Him and who He did not choose to intervene with.

 

Yeah... I know. I've been in the pen with him a few times already.

Like most non-calvinists he seems to be hung up on the notion that if God is the chooser/initiator of individual salvation and the finisher of it and does not do the same for everyone that somehow God is "unfair". Fact is, it is totally "unfair" that He saves even one of us.

 

Yeah... I know. I've been in the pen with him a few times already.

Like most non-calvinists he seems to be hung up on the notion that if God is the chooser/initiator of individual salvation and the finisher of it and does not do the same for everyone that somehow God is "unfair". Fact is, it is totally "unfair" that He saves even one of us. </font>[/QUOTE]
God is not "unfair", your theology falsely makes Him that. As I have posted numerous times, God is the author and finisher of my salvation. Accepting a gift contributes nothing to the price paid for the gift, the giver's mentality in giving it, nor the receiving of the gift. You guys are the ones who twist all of this into believing that non calvinists "earn" salvation if God gives man the ability to choose.

 

Yeah... I know. I've been in the pen with him a few times already.

Like most non-calvinists he seems to be hung up on the notion that if God is the chooser/initiator of individual salvation and the finisher of it and does not do the same for everyone that somehow God is "unfair". Fact is, it is totally "unfair" that He saves even one of us. </font>[/QUOTE]
God is not "unfair", your theology falsely makes Him that.</font>[/QUOTE]No. That would be yours. It is you that proclaims without any biblical support whatsoever that if God doesn't do the same for one as He does another that it means He has acted unfairly. In fact, one of you guys went into quite a spill about how unjust God would be if He chose to save one and let another alone.

Yes. From a human perspective, it would be unfair to kill Jesus to save you or me. Would it be fair to kill a newborn in the place of a serial rapist and killer? How much less fair then to kill the innocent Son of God for the gross sins of men throughout history? One more sin doesn't make it more fair... it makes it less.

Except you have to write the first line... through your own goodness in order for Him to do anything. You cannot avoid it. Either God first acted on you in a way that caused you to "will" to be saved or else your will was good enough on its own to be that cause.

Never said it did. However, if you have a choice of many "gifts" and you choose the one of greatest value then that means that you are somehow BETTER than the next guy who doesn't. Translation- you are saved because you are wiser, better, more discerning than the person who hears the gospel and says "no".

No twisting necessary. You make salvation something that man can pluck from a tree at his own good pleasure. You can say that the fruit was a gift... but you can't say it is a gift to you until YOU reach out and grab it... by your own power.

 

Interesting Analysis of Purpose Driven Life http://www.fundamentalbiblechurch.org/Foundation/fbcAnalysis.htm

 

After seeing the use of this philosophy divide and almost destroy a church family, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

 

Yes npetreley to get back to your question. I see it as a book of works. It seems to me the good Reverend has good intentions and pushes things to the point that we are to feel guilty, if we do not do it the way he lays it out, and we must work within a 40 day time limit. Rush, rush, rush, and do, do, do to be accepted. It has a lot of good points, but he is actually taking us back to the past.

Don’t get me wrong, for I’m not saying Pastor Warren is not saved. I’m just saying the book reveals from what position he comes from. The author states where he lives, and it is in the past. He states his understanding of scripture is from Israel's viewpoint. These people were of works, just as James says, and Mr. Warren seems to embrace that belief.

On page 9 he labels himself to be a proselyte of that religion – Quote “The Bible is clear that God considers 40 days a spiritually significant time period. Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took 40 days.” Unquote. And I completely agree with him. Then on page 12 as he winds up the ending before starting he wants us to “sign – up, commit – swear” to a 40 day “spiritual” journey on that path of 40’s. Well I believe we all should understand that “works” are dead today and so should 40 be kept out of our terminology when speaking of His grace today that we are in. Those days when God told His people if you do this, I’ll do that, are gone. The time of “their” testing is over. One came that ended the 40 assigned to Israel for testing. Christ fulfilled that for His people, and in the process, as they refused Messiah, God will make them “jealous” just as he promised “if they went to other gods”. Enter Damascus Road.

What Mr. Warren doesn’t understand is the significance of what he preaches. I see this same thing in not just other denominations, but also many Baptists. The Bible teaches us that forty (40) is Israel’s number. It is always tied to them. We do not find it ever attached to the Christian. Forty denotes a time of probation and divine testing. We must remember these are the people that God chose for Himself. All others were discarded. They wandered around for 40 years while being tested before getting to the Promised Land.

“Give me a man to fight with” Goliath taunted them for 40 days.

Forty days and forty nights Moses was on Mt. Sinai receiving the Law. Israel with their “works” of “calf” worship failed those 40 days and nights of testing.

Discipline and testing. The list goes on. Forty days Christ was tempted of the devil, with Christ the Victor. He was tested and won out.

We cannot find we are to “reverence” and apply to us that which God does not apply to us. That was then, and today all “forty” will do is take us either back in time, or into the tribulation as seen in the book of Revelation. And if I may say, we know there are some on this board that advocate just that. They expect to go through the “great tribulation”, and perhaps they may get their wish.

There are things that give away what people actually believe. I see Warren’s book mixing “works” with “grace”. If of “works” is it any more “grace”? If of “grace” won’t that produce “works”? Yes, but “grace” never even hints we are to go back to “works” to find the purpose of God, or of why we are here. The “grace” gospel of “through” faith puts us into the one that “did the works” for us. He is the one that we died with on the Cross, with whom we are made dead to sin that came by the “curse” of the Law that required works. Works is dead, as is those of “covenant”, those of “testing” who failed in that assigned for them in their allotted time, of their number forties (40’s). All things are now New. We are not to try and resurrect that which Jesus buried. We are not on probation, or in a “dispensation” of divine testing. We are saved and our mission is that of spreading the gospel of the “grace commission” of “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. If we add anything to the words of Christ from heaven it will always take us back to those of the forties (40’s)

Are these just idle words of “misunderstanding”, or will scripture prove this to be true? Take the time to check it out. Israel is promised this earth, and 40 is never used otherwise. We can prove this even in this dispensation. Was there anything of significance that happened in the 1940’s. Most definitely, and it even hooks up with another number to give further relevance of what is going on, and giving us a sign post that God is on track of heading back this way. In 1948 Israel was recognized by the world again, as a “nation”. Forty will again be significant as the number eight (8) denotes a “New Beginning”. Israel is again recognized by the world, and in the tribulation “works” will again be required of His people. They will be back in prophecy once we not in prophecy are taken up.

We must decide which “church” we are in. Are we in the “church” in Antioch, or in the church at Jerusalem? Jerusalem says works brought us to faith, but Antioch says faith is apart from works, but works will come naturally for the “spiritual”.

James says: [/I]”What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?,”[/I] James 2:14. James' answer in verse 17, ”Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone,” Who is James taking to? He tells us in the very first verse in His book. He does not address me. His book is for informational purposes only to all today in this “dispensation”. He addressed the 12 tribes only.

Paul says: ”Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law”, Romans 3:28. How does Paul come to this conclusion? ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9. Not of works, lest any man should boast,” Ephesians 2:8-9. Who is Paul talking to? Me a Gentile as seen in verse 11, ”Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.”

To me it sure looks like it will be “how” we believe, and “who” we believed that will determine the way we enter into the “kingdom”, i.e. going by way of the tribulation, or coming through Christ Jesus.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

I understand npetreley, for our group it turned out in the same manner. It mainly started with his choosing the translation that best fit what he wished to convey. Too many cooks spoil the broth, and the frenzy of translation’s boiled over. What a waste for the hundreds of people in our church, and thousands all over the world. It has been of no effect, and as usual, our church as others are looking for the next big “sales seminar” to come along.

But he does have the knack of attracting people to his way of thinking, evidently convincing many of his way. You and I, and some others, may sound like sour grapes, though all do not follow just because a Piper pipes.

I didn’t see in your post that you were judging him, and I don’t judge his salvation, but his approach to the kingdom, and as you say more time was spent correcting, or endeavoring to place in perspective.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

This book split our former church between those who by and large wanted to follow the Bible (whether Arminian or Calvinist) and those who wanted to follow a man. Soon, numerous people were bringing The Purpose-Driven Life to church, and not their Bibles. Agents of change shunned their mostly older brethren who were not on board with the "vision". Admittedly, some of the people who resisted the PDL program did so out of traditionalism rather than a desire to follow the whole counsel of God. The entire episode was very revealing, and did in fact produce one positive. As manipulative and vicious behavior emerged, it became clear who some of the tares in the church were.

I think the fruit it produced in the case of this church as well as others I have heard/read about should give people pause before embarking on the PDL program.

 

I'm aware of a SBC that split. I'm aware of some of its members seeking refuge in our SBC church, not too far away. I'm aware of the "purpose driven" Pastor of the first church now rethinking what he is doing. Therefore, he is now offering two approaches: One for the traditional SBC services, one for the "purpose driven" services. Only time will tell what "purpose driven" proponents will do to the church. I agree that the SBC is floundering; I just don't agree that we all jump overboard, hoping to find "purpose driven" life jackets.

 

p.s. Imagine, if you will, Bible Study (we used to call it Sunday School) being replaced by discussion groups with no Bibles. Imagine them coming in one door, the traditionals in another, headed for Bible Study. Imagine one group meeting before worship services, the other group after. The Pastor preaches the PDC/PDL message, then preaches to the traditionals. Imagine no church choir in the PDC/PDL group. Just jazzy ensembles. The other, robed choir. It's a long list of "just imagines".