Ways to reveal false doctrines

1 Peter 3
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

2 Timothy 2
14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

1 John 1
3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

Lorelei,
My first question before going any further is, "What happened to the thread on St. Patrick?"

Juan Diego

 

Between administrators and moderators there are at least 10 fingers on the panic button in this forum. One of them punched it during the night I guess. The St. Patrick thread was here last night before I went to bed.

- Clint

[ March 14, 2002, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

I almost responded to this post in the St. Patrick discussion but it was very off topic.

I think that for practical discussion purposes, telling someone in this forum that they are following a "false gospel" serves little purpose. I can assure you that I truly believe in my heart that you are following a false gospel, as do all Catholics. Likewise, other denominations believe that I follow a false gospel and most of them probably think you do also. It is a given that we all believe that we follow the truth.

At the same time, it is greatly disrespectful to plainly state that someone else is following a lie. I know you do it out of love but the cost of that love is respect. When two people don't respect each other, discussion is useless.

My understanding is that this forum is here for discussion of non-Baptist doctrines. If you don't want to put respect for Catholics above your love for them, you will probably not have very many meaningful discussions with them. Maybe I'm wrong but I think our purpose here should be to seek understanding of each other and not conversion of each other. At least for this board, it would be nice to show each other's beliefs respect and understanding and allow the Holy Spirit to do the conversion of our hearts.

 

Greetings Juan, Clint and everyone else,

Juan asked:
My first question before going any further is, "What happened to the thread on St. Patrick?"

Our moderator Clint responded
Between administrators and moderators there are at least 10 fingers on the panic button in this forum. One of them punched it during the night I guess

That thread started off light enough then turned as hateful and mean as anything I've seen on this board. I was dismayed that the fine Baptists, including pastors, that I have met on this board did not object to the venom spewed in the name of truth. As I have backed off a bit from this board, the posts still remain in my mind. I'm not surprised by disagreement, but totally expect and anticipate it with good will. "Good will" is the key.

And then over night, poof!

The ten fingers: (exegesis: ten moderators, not just one person counting thumbs

The Holy Spirit is alive, well and active on the Baptist Board. Hallalujah! Hallalujah!(Can you hear the choir?)

As much as I love ole St. Pat, may the St. Pat thread Rest In Peace.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray

PS: When people argue scripture, without goodwill, I'm always reminded of the old definition of exegesis.
Exegesis= Exit Jesus

 

One of the difficulties (or two as it may be) is that people become convinced of doctrine and any time anyone says anything against it, it is labeled hate speech. It is not hate when someone tells the truth. It may not be comfortable for the one hearing it but the most loving thing we can do for people is tell them the truth. The second difficulty is one of authority. As we have talked about many times, once we abandon the authority of Scripture, our doctrine becomes pluralistic. A good catholic has, of necessity, abandoned the authority of Scripture for that of teh church. He will, therefore, never be able to answer doctrinal charges on a consistent Scriptural basis. Nor will he be able to submit himself to the doctrine of Scripture since he has abandoned his authority. The situation we face in many discussions is that the RCC argues from a position that is not consistent in either authority or exegesis (which he learns from authority) with that of Scripture. Hence, a heterodoxy has been introduced which binds the adherent of catholic faith to an unalterable belief. He cannot evaluate his belief on teh basis of Scripture for that would be to abandon his authority.

How do we expose false doctrine? We preach and teach the truth of Scripture, tactfully but directly expose those who do not hold to it, and trust the Holy Spirit to do his work in the elect.

 

Lorelei said:

But Christ responded this way to the religious leaders, not to the followers. We never see Christ responding in any way except compassion and love towards the average Jewish person. Over and over in scripture we see strong condemnation for people who are perverting Biblical truths to set themselves up as righteous. That is why Jesus responded with such anger. But we never see that attitude displayed towards those who are genuinely following certain teachings, even if those teachings are false. The only proper response to those you disagree with you has to be humility and love. Jesus's example does not apply in the case of those Roman Catholics who are on this board.

 

Hi Chz,

Well, you caused me to break my obviously light committment to back off from the board. But I had to thnk you for your thoughful post. Thanks.

Pastor Larry,

Thanks for your post also. I usually disagree with you but I saw no hate in your comments. I won't detail my disagreement today, because I'm "backing off" a bit. As best I can.

I'm the one who mentioned "hate speach". It was certainly not because someone disgrees with me. Or that they disagree with the Catholic Church.

If someone refers to, what we Catholics, believe as the Church our Lord Jesus Christ established as a "whore" repeatedly and uses phrases like you Catholics are "condemmed to hell" it goes beyond disagreement.

People frequently misstate Catholic beliefs as you did in your post. But you did not do it out of malice, but I think out of your honest misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. That's OK. We Catholics don't mind attempting to clear up misunderstndings. I chose to refer to the "whore" business as hate. Which I think it is.

Something that is not hate but just a poor way of convincing others is the approach of using the word "truth" as the basis for condeming others.
We have the "truth" and you don't. Therefore you're wrong and I have the obligation to condeming you. (It's important to add, I condem you out of love.) Don't all faiths think they have the truth. I've yet to meet someone who proudly states "Our church doesn't teach the truth".

It seems silly to use that argument with such smugness.

That said, I must go to work.

Thanks Chz for you good words and the Holy Spirit for guiding the delete finger.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray
PS
Dear Lorelei,

I'm sorry that I got so off topic. I just didn't want to start another thread, since I "backing off" . Forgive me for messin' with your thread.

 

Please forgive me for misunderstanding the purpose of the board. I do recognize that I'm playing ball on your court and I am doing my best to follow all the rules. I also don't have a good feel for the past history here so bear with me.

 

Chz you said
"All non-Catholics are doomed to eternal torment because they refuse to see the Truth.

Just what truth are you talking about? The truth of the RCC doctrine or the truth written in the bible (God's Word)?

 

Either one will do. My point would be probably clearer if the Truth I was speaking of was the truth written in the Bible. Please, though... I'm not after a discussion on who holds the Truth. My hypothetical quote was intended solely for the purpose of illustrating a point and not for creating a whole new discussion.

 

Dear Chz,
That was an excellent post. I appreciate your eloquence.

God bless you,
Juan Diego

 

Thank you UncleRay,
You have my utmost respect. Your ability to put love and respect into every post you write has me in awe. I am humbled. I sometimes get riled by the words of others who are disrespectful, proud, and downright insulting and I respond in a less than Christian manner. You are an example to me and all others.

God bless you,
Juan Diego

 

But you chose a public place to do such and therefore invite others to read and the result is they want a chance to respond. Have you found any Catholic forums that refused to allow non Catholics to participate?

Thank you that *is* fair.

Isn't that what you're saying is the duty of a Christian?

Which was very unfair. You're in a public place.

I certainly hope so.

Keep doing that and you won't have many friends. How about convincing them of your conviction by how you live your life and treat others. Don't you think that would be more effective?

OK. I can buy that, but sometimes I see some who cannot articulate their beliefs become very unchristian. Just the term "false beliefs" toward another is somewhat inciteful and is demonstrative of an ignorant person. I look at such a person and immediately form the opinion that he is very prejudiced\bigoted unable to back up his belief with true knowledge. If you want me to see that my belief is false you (1.) best not call it false (2.) and you should explain it to me using references and explanations that will convince me that it is false without my having to hear that it is. Once you are able to do that, I will not have a problem with calling it false myself.

It's not the pride issue so much with hearing "false," but I have a tendency to turn off someone whose couth allows them to say it.

First you are assuming that the leaders of my Church are liars and hypocrites and that I am standing up for such. I couldn't disagree with you more.

I don't assume that the leaders of your church are liars or hypocrites because that is called rash judgment. It is unchristian to make such judgment of others. Let me give you an example. I am convinced that Joseph Smith was a liar and a fraud that perpetrated a hoax on his followers. But for me to treat any Mormon that believes and defends it as though he was a liar and hypocrite is uncalled for, unchristian, and definitly unconvincing to him.

Do you see what I am saying Lorelei?

You are assuming they are false. Maybe you are the one playing the part of St. Paul????

Articulate your beliefs intelligently, logically, and without malice and then be willing to admit when they don't match up logically. OK? Is that fair?

God bless you Lorelei. I hope that I haven't said anything here that offends you and I look forward to further conversations. I haven't yet responded to your first post and will get to it, but not right now. I have a life outside of this board and need to attend to it.

Peace be with you,
Juan Diego

 

Lorlei,

You are forgetting something....as a Christian if you think ANYONE (regardless of denom) is in error your only obligation is to pray for them....no where are you called to attack them ....nor are you to cause a stumbling block for anyone else....

LaRae

 

We are also to separate from them:
Romans 16:17-18 Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them. For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.

We are to call attention to them:
3 John 9-10 I wrote something to the church; but Diotrephes, who loves to be first among them, does not accept what we say. For this reason, if I come, I will call attention to his deeds which he does, unjustly accusing us with wicked words; and not satisfied with this, he himself does not receive the brethren, either, and he forbids those who desire to do so and puts them out of the church.
Christ himself practiced this method with false teachers all throughout his ministry. Those who follow in the footsteps of Christ must also point out false teaching and false teachers.

We are to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints (perhaps as opposed to the faith being continously delivered through church tradition):
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints.

We are never commanded to tolerate false doctrine. Souls are at stake; eternity is in the balance.