Belief

Proverbs as wisdom literature is meant only for the converted, because only the converted could properly understand proverbs.

I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess, but I would figure that the number is large enough to make me cry in despair. The same way an adult does by not recieving the free gift of salvation from God.

One is born again by recieving the free gift of faith and not by anything that they have done themselves.</font>[/QUOTE]Chemtiz, If I were ignorant of the Lord and I need salvation, how would you lead me to salvation?

Please use scripture if you would not mind.

Godbless

And concerning the infant thing. The bible says in John that we must be born AGAIN

[ July 19, 2002, 08:16 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

I really don't see your point on this line of reasoning. Why are you trying to sidetrack the issue.

You have obviously placed birth at the moment the child leaves the womb. It is that kind of reasoning that leads to the rationalization of abortion. If a child is a living human from the day it is conceived then why can't it be born again and already have faith before it leaves the womb?</font>[/QUOTE]Chemitz, I am not trying to sidetrack the issue at hand. The title of this thread is called belief. We are not going to agree on the child thing so we might as well move on.

So if i was ignorant of Christ, how would you lead me to salvation, and what would you tell me that i needed to do to become saved.

God bless

 

In otherwords, I am afraid you are right.

First of all your premise is flawed. Bible verses would do no good for those who are ignorant of Christ. Trust me I have dialogued enough with Jews, pagans, and atheists to know they could careless about you quoting the Bible. Quite a bit depends on the situation that the unbeliever is in as to how I would proceed. Second of all your premise is flawed because you are assuming there is something you can do to earn your salvation.</font>[/QUOTE]Please correct my assumptions if they are wrong.

I assume that you believe that since christ died and shed his blood than everyone is saved just b/c of that?

If so how do you explain away Confess, believd, Repent, Be baptized, Follow Holliness, Be born again, Follow Peace etc. just to name a few.

I am cofused on how you beleive.

 

Ok Chemitz, I was looking up scripture on being born, and I found one more thing that may intrest you.

Born:
1080 gennao {ghen-nah'-o}
from a variation of 1085; TDNT - 1:665,114; v

AV - begat 49, be born 39, bear 2, gender 2, bring forth 1,
be delivered 1, misc 3; 97

I believe you have the moment of Conception and the moment of Birth .

Romans 9:11 says (For the children being NOT YET BORN, NEITHER having done ANY GOOD OR EVIL, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of him that calleth.)

Now I guess we can let it rest.

Just for laughs I was speaking to my wife last night as we were getting ready for bed and I entertained her with the subject at hand. I let her know your views on the subject and she was curious to know that while the parents were "Doing the Married thing" if the baby would be sinning b/c he was watching Pornography? LOL

And wanted to know if While the Parents were doing the "Married thing" if the baby got mad and cused his parents for bothering his bubble, WOuld it be a sin?

LOL she was only kiddng Chemitz

[ July 19, 2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Physical action does not matter, by our sinful nature we are dead to God the moment life begins. If a grown man can be "born again" of the Spirit why can't a child in the womb not be "born again" of the Spirit?

A person who can do any of these things already has faith and has been saved. A person without faith can neither recognize the need for Christ, nor repent, nor try to live a holy life.</font>[/QUOTE]

An unknown baby knows NO Good or evil according to Romans 9:11. We need to be born again b/c we are born into sin. An unborn child cannot be reborn of the Spirit and has no need to be reborn of the spirit b/c it knows no evil and has not committed any sin.

And that is the problem with an unborn child. He can neither arecognize the need for Christ, nor repent, nor try to live a holy life.

If you argue the fact that an unborn baby can have faith then you recognize the fact that an unborn baby has to repent daily, and live a holy life.

 

Chemitz, Tell me what you would say to a sinner or how would you lead a sinner to Salvation?

 

First let me make this clear, I by myself can not lead anyone to Christ only the Holy Spirit working through me and others can do that.

Second I have addressed this in another thread that is currently running.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000995</font>[/QUOTE]Chemitz, so all that you are saying is that the only thing one needs to do is have a mental revelation of Who Jesus is and Sit back and believe?

 

OK... now lets say that one has faith in God but never repents, lives a holy life, or is baptized do you think this person will be saved and have the reward of heaven?

You said No b/c you do not believe it is just a mental revelation, it is a complete and utter turn around that is caused by the Holy Spirit and not some work/decision made by the person.

It was always my understanding that the Holy Spirit leads us to conviction. It is our decision wether or not we respond to the conviction of the HOly Ghost. (eph 4:30)

[ July 23, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

Did the theif on the cross do any of these things?

One who does not have faith will not repent, because repentance is a response to faith. Again repentance or living a holy life are not required for salvation. One because we can not possibly repent of all our sins and two because we can not possibly live a holy life. Repentance and living a life of sacntification are only outward signs of the response to the gift of faith, they do nothing for our justification and salvation before God.</font>[/QUOTE]We are not talking about the theif on the Cross. He was still under the old Testement. We are talking about you and I.

We are also not talking about people who do not have faith. I am talking about people that have faith and Do not repent. What will happen to them?

Why can one not repent of all their sins? Why can one not live a holy life. Maybe not as holy as God but we are commanded to Follow after peace and HOLLINESS

Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

Looking Diligently lest any man Fail

I can prove to you without a shawdow of a doubt that obidence is a sure part of entering heaven.

2 Thes 1:
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

How do you reconcile these verses to your theology? According to James, Faith without works is dead. (James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.)

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Anyone can have faith in who Jesus Christ is. But that faith alone will not save us unless we act upon it. So to say that Repentance and Holliness is not a part of salvation, one needs to think again.

[ July 23, 2002, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: ONENESS ]

 

You cant judge someones faith. There are people that believe in God and Have faith in God, but are unwilling to to follow his teachings b/c they do not know anybetter.

You could tell someone to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. Many people take that as just haveing mental knowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord and beleiving that he is God. The bible tells us that every man is given a measure of faith Romans 12:3 So to say that they do not have faith would be a lie.

We may not be able to speak of every sin that we commited, but Paul said I die daily. When we repent we dont just say Forgive me for the sin you know. But you can also repent of the things that you are not aware of. Whats wrong with saying forgive me for anything that I am ignorant of that my be against you, and ask him to convict you of those things. That is still repenting.

I am not saying you can earn it. I am saying that you have to be obidient. That is not earning it. That is doing what you are told to do by God himself.

Can we earn the Holy Ghost? Isnt that our promise. Isnt that a free gift?

And this is probably the most clear of them all. Chemitz if you argue about this, remember its not me you are doing the debateing with, its the scriptures.

There is no such thing as a person without faith. But you are right that alot of times people cannot see that they are a sinner in need of Christ. But that does not change the fact that they need to repent and live a holy life.

A Person with faith may not know to respond to repentance or living a holy life b/c they might not know to.

Godbless