Rapture Question

Good job, Pastor Larry!

Still listening for that sweet trumpet sound...

 

Does Revelation say the seals and trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? I believe God's judgment doesn't come until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and none of them are directed at us Christians.

Note that the tribulation includes war, famine, plague, persecution, natural disaster, death -- things which we Christians have always suffered, and not because God was bringing judgment against us.

Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

I don't believe eschatology itself can be heretical because a heretic can't be saved (Galatians 5:20-21), and we aren't saved by our eschatology (Romans 10:9-10).

But I do believe that a wrong eschatology can lead to the changing or the inventing of other doctrines in order to conform to our eschatology. Pre-trib doctrine can define salvation to include being saved from the tribulation. When it's pointed out that a "great multitude" of Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14), pre-trib doctrine must then define the church as only those saved before a pre-trib rapture, and invent a new class of believers it calls "trib saints." But then we're left with the problem of a great multitude of Christians saved after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who are outside of the church, when Paul said there was only one faith and one body (Ephesians 4:4-6).

http://www.geocities.com/postrib

 

No matter what you believe you better hope you are right.

I think we are all going to find out real soon.

 

No. The answer comes from reading the texts in question. Gen says from the river of Egypt and 1 Kings says unto the border of Egypt. Thus, two different boundaries are in question. Additionally, Genesis says that teh land will be owned; 1 Kings says it was merely reigned over yet still inhabited by others. Thus the texts in question answer the questions you raise.</font>[/QUOTE]Well then you disagree with Nehemiah.
See Nehemiah 9:23,24 "Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it. So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.

Here we have Nehemiah saying the promised land by God was possessed by Israel.

CHECKMATE!