How does this fit the Millenium?

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

Notice the conditions on earth that God brings about in Isaiah 13, Isaiah 24 and Isaiah 34?

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled, for the LORD has spoken this word.
4 The earth mourns and withers, the world fades and withers, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away.
5 The earth is also polluted by its inhabitants, for they transgressed laws, violated statutes, broke the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live in it are held guilty. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men are left.

...

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.
22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.
23 Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders
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How does this fit in your view of the Millenium?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore all hands will fall limp, And every man's heart will melt.
8 They will be terrified, Pains and anguish will take hold of them; They will writhe like a woman in labor, They will look at one another in astonishment, Their faces aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises And the moon will not shed its light.
11 Thus I will punish the world for its evil And the wicked for their iniquity; I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.
12 I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, And the earth will be shaken from its place At the fury of the LORD of hosts In the day of His burning anger.

In interesting, literal and fascinating look at what happens during the millenium.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

Notice that in Rev 19 God starts the millenium with the "feast of the birds" on the flesh of all mankind. "And the REST were killed by the sword that came from His mouth". It is complete and utter destruction - "dealing out retribution in flaming fire" 2Thess 1.

But the picture of the lasting result that Isaiah describes is awesome.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

Isaiah is not alone in this.

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was No Man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
27 For thus says the LORD, ""The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 ""For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.''
29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees; They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, And no man dwells in them.
[/quote]

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · May 8, 2004

The repetitive language in the first seven verses of Revelation chapter twenty, should sanctify and seal to our hearts the reality of the earthly Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, in the future. Six times in seven brief verses, the Apostle John apprises us of the Lord's future plans for His people. I do not think that using the term, 'a thousand years' a couple of more times would convince an Amillennialist of Divine verities. Study also: Zechariah chapter fourteen.

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

There are those who reject the teaching on a literal millenium and there are those who accept the clear Rev 20 statement that at the Rev 19 return of Christ there is a Rev 20:4 resurrection of the righteous followed by 1000 years (a real 1000 years) and then the second resurrection.

For those who accept that 1000 years as the Bible states it - and who accept that Christ reigns with the saints (somewhere) during that time - my question is how these texts from Isaiah 13, 24, 34, Jer 4:23-29... fit into your view of the millenium?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

I would also ask how Catholics (the ones that accept the literal fact of the 1000 years betweend the return of Christ and the 2nd resurrection) view the 2nd coming? What do they see happening during the millenium?

In Christ,

Bob

Brother Adam · May 8, 2004

"The Lamb's Supper" would give you your answer. I would also read the Vaticans documents on Last Things.

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

I found this - http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm on the Millenium. It was pretty wimpy.

Peter said to "fix your hope completely" on the 2nd coming - and yet the RCC has nothing to say about it - and the 1000 years to follow?

Amazing!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 8, 2004

Since the NewAdvent site is not forthcoming on this - can any RC member here tell me what the RCC teaches will happen at the 2nd coming? Millenium? Nothing? go to heaven? Stay on earth?

In Christ,

Bob

Grasshopper · May 8, 2004

Notice the conditions on earth that God brings about in Isaiah 13, Isaiah 24 and Isaiah 34?
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Is. 13:
deals with the destruction of Babylon. (vs. 1.)
(Vs 17) tells us by who. (medes)

Historical event.

Is 24:

Describes in apocolytic language(vs 19)the passing of the Old Covenant(vs 4-6) and the Destruction of Jerusalem in AD70. Christ reigns in the New Jerusalem(New Covenant). (vs. 26)

Historical Event

Is. 34:

deals with the judgement of Edom.(vs.5)

Historical Event.

Grasshopper · May 8, 2004

Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was No Man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
27 For thus says the LORD, ""The whole land shall be a desolation, Yet I will not execute a complete destruction.
28 ""For this the earth shall mourn And the heavens above be dark, Because I have spoken, I have purposed, And I will not change My mind, nor will I turn from it.''
29 At the sound of the horseman and bowman every city flees; They go into the thickets and climb among the rocks; Every city is forsaken, And no man dwells in them.

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Describes in apocolyptic language the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. See also Zeph. 1

Ray Berrian · May 8, 2004

'The Day of the Lord is the time after the rapture, called the Great Tribulation which will last seven years. This judgment of the Lord on sinners will last at least through the time of the Second Coming of Christ that you referred to in Revelation 19:11.

Isaiah 12:10-11 deals with this judgment of God probably sometime during the last half of the Great Tribulation-the last 3 ½ years.

Isaiah 24:19-23 is definitely the last half of the Great Tribulation when God's judgment will fall on all the wicked of the world. Verse 23 points most clearly to the earthly reign of Christ on the earth. His Temple will be in Jerusalem and kings will be required by Him to send delegations to worship both Christ in all of His majesty and holiness. [Zechariah 14:17-18]

Isaiah 34:4 dovetails with II Peter 3:10. Notice again 'the Day of the Lord.'

In Jeremiah 4:23-29 it is definitely speaking of the Lord's judgment on Israel. In almost every chapter of this book you will find references to 'the land, Thy land, His land, your land.' As to whether this passage is dealing with a present day judgment in Jeremiah's time of living or of the Great Tribulation I cannot say for sure, for the amount of time that I have briefly studied this passage.

Brother Adam · May 8, 2004

"Peter said to "fix your hope completely" on the 2nd coming - and yet the RCC has nothing to say about it - and the 1000 years to follow?

Amazing!"

The RCC has nothing to say about it? How do you know? You did a short search on the internet and came to the conclusion?

As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
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http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

An understanding of millinium should be seen within the wider context of Revelation as a whole, and that within a context of scripture as a whole.

As further sources I suggest "A Dictionary of Early Church Beliefs" edited by David W. Bercot
The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn
Crossing the Threshold of Hope by Pope John Paul II
and of course, the Catachism

You can also search the vatican website www.vatican.va for information regarding Last Things. See especially Lumen Gentium, Chapter 7.

That's a start.

Grasshopper · May 9, 2004

Isaiah 12:10-11 deals with this judgment of God probably sometime during the last half of the Great Tribulation-the last 3 ½ years.
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I asssume you mean 13:10-11. If so get the context. Verse 1 and verse 17.

Ray Berrian · May 9, 2004

Grasshopper,

Thanks for the correction. Yes, I did mean Isaiah 13:10-13.

Ray

BobRyan · May 11, 2004

"Peter said to "fix your hope completely" on the 2nd coming - and yet the RCC has nothing to say about it - and the 1000 years to follow?

Amazing!"

Originally posted by Brother Adam:

The RCC has nothing to say about it? How do you know? You did a short search on the internet and came to the conclusion?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />As far as the millennium goes, we tend to agree with Augustine and, derivatively, with the amillennialists. The Catholic position has thus historically been "amillennial" (as has been the majority Christian position in general, including that of the Protestant Reformers), though Catholics do not typically use this term. The Church has rejected the premillennial position, sometimes called "millenarianism" (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church 676). In the 1940s the Holy Office judged that premillennialism "cannot safely be taught," though the Church has not dogmatically defined this issue.

With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word "rapture" to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term "rapture" is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—"we will be caught up," [Latin: rapiemur]).
Click to expand...

http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp

An understanding of millinium should be seen within the wider context of Revelation as a whole, and that within a context of scripture as a whole.

As further sources I suggest "A Dictionary of Early Church Beliefs" edited by David W. Bercot
The Lamb's Supper by Scott Hahn
Crossing the Threshold of Hope by Pope John Paul II
and of course, the Catachism

You can also search the vatican website www.vatican.va for information regarding Last Things. See especially Lumen Gentium, Chapter 7.

That's a start. </font>[/QUOTE]I went to your web sites - and did searches on "Second Coming" and on "millenium".

The RCC primarily teaches that they don't accept these doctrines - but it does not say what it DOES teach.

So - no millenium

and ... no second coming??

Surely they can do better than that!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · May 11, 2004

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
'The Day of the Lord is the time after the rapture, called the Great Tribulation which will last seven years. This judgment of the Lord on sinners will last at least through the time of the Second Coming of Christ that you referred to in Revelation 19:11.

Isaiah 12:10-11 deals with this judgment of God probably sometime during the last half of the Great Tribulation-the last 3 ½ years.

Isaiah 24:19-23 is definitely the last half of the Great Tribulation when God's judgment will fall on all the wicked of the world. Verse 23 points most clearly to the earthly reign of Christ on the earth. His Temple will be in Jerusalem and kings will be required by Him to send delegations to worship both Christ in all of His majesty and holiness. [Zechariah 14:17-18]

Isaiah 34:4 dovetails with II Peter 3:10. Notice again 'the Day of the Lord.'

In Jeremiah 4:23-29 it is definitely speaking of the Lord's judgment on Israel. In almost every chapter of this book you will find references to 'the land, Thy land, His land, your land.' As to whether this passage is dealing with a present day judgment in Jeremiah's time of living or of the Great Tribulation I cannot say for sure, for the amount of time that I have briefly studied this passage.
Click to expand...

The texts speak of all the cities of the world being destroyed.

No mankind left on the planet.

The entire earth broken

No birds left

All sinners exterminated.

If that is what happens just BEFORE The second coming then the only ones alive during the millenium are the saints that are with Christ in heaven.

Therefore - I would propose that these texts describe events AFTER the second coming - starting with "AND the REST were killed by the sword that came from His mouth".

In Christ,

Bob

Ray Berrian · May 11, 2004

People who are not students of the Word are content to believe that this all just flows on until the final judgment day for all human beings.

People who do not believe in the Great Tribulation and the Millinimum sit on the dunce stool, with no other answers to the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Rapture, the Battle of Armageddon, the Great White Throne Judgment, etc. I call it spiritual laziness.

If you don't have answers to these events, keep on studying.

On various occasions I have visited the Catholic church and I never heard one of these events touched on at all. The Magisterium should go back to their studies and figure things out for the good of their clientele. Other liberal Protestant churches neglect these events; their preachers are apostate, but thank God not all of them.

Grasshopper · May 12, 2004

People who are not students of the Word are content to believe that this all just flows on until the final judgment day for all human beings.
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So unless they agree with you, they are not students of the Word? Rather arrogant.

People who do not believe in the Great Tribulation and the Millinimum sit on the dunce stool, with no other answers to the Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the Rapture, the Battle of Armageddon, the Great White Throne Judgment, etc. I call it spiritual laziness.
Click to expand...

If you like I could show you where you could learn about these things, and you will find these men far from dunces. However I have a feeling if it doesn't fit your view then you automatically reject it and disengage your brain(laziness).

Just as I showed the verses dealing with the day of the Lord were past events according to scripture, you continue to hold to a future fulfillment. Why? It seems some of you "students of the Word" would understand that the prophets used apocolytic language in their writings to describe the overthrow of nations and goverments.

How does this fit the Millenium?

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