How does this fit the Millenium?

The verses sound to me like what happens after the millenium when the earth is destroyed by fire and the new heaven and new earth are created before the New Jerusalem descends from heaven. Many people believe we will spend eternity in heaven, but the Bible is clear in Rev. we will be living on a new earth - the old one having been destroyed by fire.

Literally.

 

Okay, so the first 7 years of the millenium will be clean up? Birds helping out.

 

Bob Ryan & Birdlady,

I agreed with your posts. There will be a clean up of the wicked dead; as to the length of time I am not sure. I recall that the N.T. somewhere speaks of them hiring people to bury the dead.

 

Correction.

I believe the reference for 'hiring help' to bury the dead is found in the Book of Ezekiel, but it is definitely in the O.T. Try Ezekiel 39:11,13-16. Verse 14 speaks of people who will be 'continually employed' in ridding Israel of the stench.

 

The reality of Gog in Israel in Ezekiel 39:11 matches the Gog of Revelation 20:8 that will take place after the thousand year reign of Christ's Millenium where Satan will be loosed from 'his prison' where God confined him for the 1,000 years. In verse nine 'the beloved city' is Jerusalem; the present day place where much terrorism has already taken place. Jerusalem, Jerusalem--much of the concluding of time will take place in God's Israel.

 

Perhaps there were two different types of chariots in John's day. Again why take it out of the 1st century context?

Well you have a problem then:
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.

Jesus repeats Himself in Chapter 22 saying these things must shortly come to pass. What things? The things in chapters 4-20.

Now does shortly still mean shortly?

So basically if it didn't happen they way you think it should happen then it didn't happen. Just ignore the time-indicators because they are meaningless.

Let the timing determine the nature.

Yes.

I can't beleive you really mean that.So you don't study much of the OT do you?

No it says he will SEE Him coming. Doesn't say anything about role-reversal. This is what I'm talking about. You insist that His coming will be seen then deny those who Jesus told would see His coming saw it.

Then 99.9% of all christians will never experience the blessed hope.

About as much as the disciples. This is your problem, you have learned a system of eschatology. Degrees don't impress me., sorry.

As far as end-time events you can rest assured knowing God kept His promises. Seems the Jews of Jesus's day read the OT everyday even though a majority of it was history.

Which OT prophets did the Catholic Church kill and persecute?

Do I need to name the ones that would say much of Revelation deals with the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70? Spurgeon and Sproul would be two.

Yes like parousia, mello, genea........

What did he want the original audience to understand? Nothing?

You should ask for your money back from your bible school. If you think you can interpret any of the NT especially Revelation without using the OT as a backdrop then............wow. I must say you are the first, of any view, I have heard say this.

 

I'll just sight a few:

"The Great City"

Babylon

Rev 18:18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

Jerusalem

Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city , which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

"Whore and Adultery"

Babylon

Rev 17: 5 and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Jerusalem

Ez 6: 9 And those of you that escape shall remember me among the nations whither they shall be carried captive, how that I have been broken with their lewd heart, which hath departed from me, and with they eyes, which play the harlot after their idols: and they shall loathe themselves in their own sight for the evils which they have committed in all their abominations.

Ez 16:15 But thou didst trust in thy beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy whoredoms on every one that passed by; his it was.
16 And thou didst take of thy garments, and madest for thee high places decked with divers colors, and playedst the harlot upon them: the like things shall not come, neither shall it be so.

Jer. 3:1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, will he return unto her again? will not that land be greatly polluted? But thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith Jehovah.
2 Lift up thine eyes unto the bare heights, and see; where hast thou not been lain with? By the ways hast thou sat for them, as an Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.
3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; yet thou hast a harlot's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.
4 Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My Father, thou art the guide of my youth?
5 Will he retain his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and hast done evil things, and hast had thy way.
6 Moreover Jehovah said unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
7 And I said after she had done all these things, She will return unto me; but she returned not: and her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
8 And I saw, when, for this very cause that backsliding Israel had committed adultery , I had put her away and given her a bill of divorcement, yet treacherous Judah her sister feared not; but she also went and played the harlot.

"Blood of the Saints"

Babylon

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder.

Rev18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth.

Jerusalem

Matt 23: 30 and say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we should not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye witness to yourselves, that ye are sons of them that slew the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


I Thess2:14 For ye, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judaea in Christ Jesus: for ye also suffered the same things of your own countrymen, even as they did of the Jews;
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove out us, and pleased not God, and are contrary to all men;
16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved; to fill up their sins always: but the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

"Saints warned to Escape"
Babylon

Rev 18: 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived

Jerusalem

Lk 21:20 But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out ; and let not them that are in the country enter therein.
22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

"Adorned like a Priest"

Babylon

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls , having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication,

Rev 18:16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!

Jerusalem

Ex 28: 5 And they shall take the gold, and the blue, and the purple, and the scarlet, and the fine linen.
6 And they shall make the ephod of gold, of blue, and purple, scarlet, and fine twined linen, the work of the skilful workman7 It shall have two shoulder-pieces joined to the two ends thereof, that it may be joined together.8 And the skilfully woven band, which is upon it, wherewith to gird it on, shall be like the work thereof and of the same piece; of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen..9 And thou shalt take two onyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:10 six of their names on the one stone, and the names of the six that remain on the other stone, according to their birth.11 With the work of an engraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones, according to the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be inclosed in settings of gold.

"Destroyed by Hailstones"

Babylon

Rev 16:
21 And great hail, every stone about the weight of a talent, cometh down out of heaven upon men: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof is exceeding great.

Jerusalem

Josephus records in his book, "War of the Jews" Book 5 chapter 6:3 , that stones weighing 1 talent were catapulted into Jerusalem during the siege by the Roman armies.

Punishment for a harlot were burning and stoning

Old Covenant instructions:

Lev21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Deut 22:20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
21 then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones , because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.


Babylon

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest, and the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and shall burn her utterly with fire.

Rev 18:21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.

Notice the celebration of the fall of Babylon:


Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye saints, and ye apostles, and ye prophets; for God hath judged your judgment on her.

No more persecution of the early church by the Jews. They had been judged just as Jesus said they would be.

Matt 23: 34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you , All these things shall come upon this generation .

 

Pope Peter?

Or it could be 1260 days or 3 and one half years that the sieze on Jerusalem lasted. 66AD-70AD.

Again you take a preterist approach if it has already happened.

So Babylon is a city that represents a system? Babylon is called the Mother of Harlots. Go to the OT and find out who is the Harlot all the way through to the New Testament. Who did God say committed adultery?

The Beast she rides is Rome. She sits upon the city of 7 hills which is Rome. It shows an alliance that the Jews had with Rome in persecuting the Christians.

 

Grasshopper,

You said, 'Perhaps there were two different types of chariots in John's day. Again why
take it out of the 1st century context?'

Ray: 'The word 'chariot' in Revelation 18:13 is within the word picture realm of the first century, which I do not have to prove to you; we agree. If John would have used the terms, cars and trucks they may have discounted the whole Book of Revelation as being from the Divine One-God. The Greeks did not have a word for car or truck so they used this ideal word for that day.'

You said, 'You asked me, 'What things exactly were to happen shortly?'

Ray: 'This has been addressed already. To repeat---The Lord explains all of the various things that the seven churches will have to go through very soon after the writing down of this vision that John the Apostle is seeing. This covers the first three chapters.'

You said, 'Well you have a problem then: Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These words are faithful and true: and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angels to show unto his servants the things which must shortly come to pass.'

Ray: I have answers to your tunnel vision. God speaking through the Apostle Peter said something in II Peter 3:8. In the light of this verse and the way that God relates time events to our world, He has only been gone just over two days. From His vision of things all these things ' . . . must shortly come to pass . . . '

You said, 'Jesus repeats Himself in Chapter 22 saying these things must shortly come
to pass. What things?

Ray: 'Revelation 22 deals with the eternal city, His promised rewards, the tree of life, and in verse twenty about His coming for His redeemed people of God.'

You said, 'The things in chapters 4-20. Now does shortly still mean shortly?'

Ray: 'Shortly' often does not mean time as you and I have learn from the time of our childhood. God is looking at things from His perspective which is from eternity. All of the eschatological events from chapters 4-22 have not yet happened. They only happened in the sense that John experienced them in his vision from the Lord.'

Ray has said before: 'I am saying, that all of the time events are yet future. No one has
experienced the taking of the church to Heaven/Rapture-I Thess.
4:17, the Great Tribulation, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the
Marriage of the Lamb, the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, the
Second Coming of Christ and on and on and on. Has the final
judgment for sinners already happened in your way of thinking?'

Incidentally, you never answered me as to whether the final judgment has already happened.'

You said, 'So basically if it didn't happen they way you think it should happen then it
didn't happen. Just ignore the time-indicators because they are meaningless. Let the timing determine the nature.'

Ray: 'I see no 'time-indicators' promised to us in the Book of Revelation; please, point out a couple for us. Scholars suggest the time of the writing of the book but no one exactly knows the date of its writing.'

Ray: 'I did not know that LaHaye has a Study Bible.' I'll write footnotes for a study Bible on the Book of Revelation, if you will financially back it for me. It would not have the impact of other scholars because I am not well known.'

Ray said before, 'Why should we even bother to study the history of what God has
already done?'

You said, 'I can't beleive you really mean that.'

Ray: 'Sure I mean it. What are we waiting for here as Christians if everything has already happened. In your distorted view, what happens to the saved and lost at the time of their death?'

You said, 'So you don't study much of the OT do you?'

Ray: 'I have preached out of the O.T. as much as from the N.T. There are lessons for us to learn from both covenants.'

Ray said already, 'You forgot already!! I said, 'Caiaphas was sitting in judgment of
Jesus. The roles will be reversed when Jesus comes at the
Second Coming of Christ. Caiaphas will have to answer before the
Lord God Almighty.'

Also, even if you don't think the reverse order is implied, I believe that Caiaphas will one day stand before the Lord God at the final judgment for sinners.'

You said, 'No it says he will SEE Him coming.'

Ray: 'Revelation 1:7 indicates that 'every eye will see Christ at His coming; this includes Caiaphas.'

You said, 'Doesn't say anything about role-reversal.'

Ray: 'I agree with you, but in fact Jesus will judge the High Priest as to his eternal destiny, which of course will be eternal Hell.'

You said, 'This is what I'm talking about. You insist that His coming will be seen the deny those who Jesus told would see His coming saw it.'

Ray: Jesus did not place any time framework on the reality of the Second Coming of Christ. You like to think that it happened before, at the time of the Destruction of Jerusalem, or shortly afterward.'

Ray said before: 'The blessed hope for all Christians is when He comes for His
church and seizes us and takes us to Heaven.' [I Thess. 4:17]

You said, 'Then 99.9% of all christians will never experience the blessed hope.'

Ray: Why don't you think all Christians will experience His coming for His church? Are they not worthy through Jesus' atonement and imputed righteousness?

You said of Christian education that you do not value men who have been appointed by Christ to teach others, if not the truth-at least the various views of Biblical understanding.'

Here were your words: 'About as much as the disciples.'

Ray: 'The Lord used fishermen as well as men like the Apostle Paul who wrote most of the N.T. who also sat at the feet of Gamaliel. [Acts 22:3] Study and find out who Gamaliel was in his day.

You said, 'This is your problem, you have learned a system of eschatology. Degrees don't impress me., sorry.'

Ray: 'I have studied all of the views of eschatology and most strongly believe in the Pre-Tribulation, and Millennial view of end times events. If degrees are not important, why do most denominations push for an educated clergy?

You said, 'As far as end-time events you can rest assured knowing God kept His
promises. Seems the Jews of Jesus's day read the OT everyday even
though a majority of it was history.'

Ray: 'You are right as to this point above.'


You said, 'Which OT prophets did the Catholic Church kill and persecute?'

Ray: 'You and I know that Catholicism did not begin until well after the Apostolate had died and gone to Heaven.'

You said, 'Do I need to name the ones that would say much of Revelation deals with
the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70? Spurgeon and Sproul would be two.'

Ray: 'Spurgeon was a prince of preachers but fell far short of being a theological scholar. And as to Dr. Sproul, he is lost so deeply in his Calvinism that he has forgotten that the Lord is the Author and inspiration of His own truth. He has some truth but his interpretation of Calvin's five points are all wrong, plus you claim he believes in an invented eschatological view that you somehow value. I would not give a 'nickel' for an eighteen wheeler full of his books/ideas. He is a shame to Christianity!

You said, 'Yea, probably meant the chariots of that day. Could it be the bible
has meaning to those to whom it was written?'

Ray: Absolutely not! John is pointing to future events to our life-time; but Jesus could come for us at any second.'

You said, 'Yes like parousia, mello, genea........'

Ray: 'Please, explain your meaning of the Greek terms above.'

You said, 'What did he want the original audience to understand? Nothing?'

Ray: 'Every Christian in that day understood only as much as the Lord revealed to them.'

You said, 'You should ask for your money back from your bible school. If you think you
can interpret any of the NT especially Revelation without using the OT as a
backdrop then............wow. I must say you are the first, of any view, I have
heard say this.'

Ray: 'At this time in my life I could use a few more thousand dollars to place in C.D.'s. I do compare the N.T. to the O.T. and believe that much of the O.T. is understood only as we look into our future. With your view of eschatology you have to 'spiritualize' or distort much of the Old Testament. I believe Ezekiel chapters 35-48 speaks of Israel becoming a nation, in our s future events like the building of Christ's future Millennial Temple in Jerusalem, Israel. Your type of thinking along with others have to twist the Scripture like a snake moves through the deep grass.'

I think you got me wrong. I do not know it all; I do not have all the answers to people's questions. I have to study every day because as I get older I have the proclivity to forget some of what I learned in the past. Part of my learning was to realize that there are people out there like you and your concepts of end times events. In 2,000 I received the Th.D. degree and would like to go back and get the Ph D., but my wife says where are you going to use it. I just like to study for the love of learning more about my Lord. I know you can identify with some of my throughts.

 

But you must interpret that through Ps 90:
1 Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
3 Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Yes, in God's realm time has no boundaries or defintion, but when He revealed His truth to His creation, which lived by the bounds of time and space, He did so in such a way we would understand. Many quote 2Peter to try to disprove the time-statement, but many of those very same people will tell you a day can only mean 24 hours in Genesis.

You had no trouble using shortly in the normal usage when it talked of chapters1-3, but now in Chapter 22 it suddenly doesn't mean that anymore.

All things are fulfilled.

The time indicators I am referring to are the ones that tell us when these things will happen. Shortly, near, quickly.....

Sorry, not a wealthy man. Besides, Scofield beat you to it.

You just contradicted yourself. You say why study if prophecies have been fulfilled, then I say why do you study the OT, and you say because you can learn lessons. So why can't you learn lessons from an eschatological view point that says God kept His promises how and when He said He would.

Will those of Matt 26:64 see Jesus coming with the angels? If so when. Unless you believe that the coming of Matt 26:64 is different from the others.
This gives us an indication of when His "parousia" was to occur, in the life-time of those present at His trial. Matt 16:27-28 gives us another indication, before some of those standing there tasted death. It is the futurist who must twist these to make them mean other than the obvious.

This is the whole point, He did put it in a framework of time. You just deny that "soon", "near" "shortly", "this generation" mean what they normally mean. You insist on literalism then deny it on the easiest texts.

Because that is your rapture text. The only people who are raptured are those alive at that time. Most of the elect will be dead and in Heaven.

Show me where I said that. This is an example of how you interpret scripture, you read into texts things that are not there.

Well aware of Gamaliel

Didn't say there not important, but it doesn't impress me. There are a lot of educated Theologians who are as lost as Judas. I would hope a church wants an educated clergy, but educated doesn't necessarily mean Seminary Grad. Here is a pastor who is as good as anyone I've listened to, but many churches probably wouldn't hire him because he doesn't have a seminary education. Just a Finance Degree from Baylor. Those churches who wouldn't even consider him have no idea what their missing, and will fill their pulpit with someone who couldn't hold his "spiritual jock". Having said that it is a very good thing to have as much education as you can get. Some get it from seminary others don't.


http://www.emmanuel-baptist.org/sermons/index.htm

Now I'm starting to see where you come from.

So maybe you don't put so much stock in education as you think.

Unbelievable. The bible is relevant to us but not them.

Find the definition of those words and look them up in scripture.

So perhaps in the coming generations Preterism will be revealed to the church.

Ditto.

Since the New Covenant is a spiritual entity would not it's elements also be spiritual? I guarantee you spiritualize more of the NT than you realize.

 

This is where futurism errors. You take passages that have "spiritual" fullfilment and try to make them physical. Futurist also take part of Ez.and make it the Millinial Reign, which has major flaws.

Consider:

Ez 37:19 say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.

Fulfilled:

Eph 2: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,


Ez 37: 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Paul quotes it as a fulfillment in 2 Cor.

II COR 6:16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ez 37: 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Again fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;21 in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;22 in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Now the problem with the Millinial Reign being described in Ez. is the return of sacrifices. Futurist try to get around this by saying its just a memorial ceremony, but Ez. says its for sin offerings:

Ez 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, into the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin-offering , saith the Lord Jehovah.
28 And they shall have an inheritance: I am their inheritance; and ye shall give them no possession in Israel; I am their possession.
29 They shall eat the meal-offering, and the sin-offering, and the trespass-offering; and every devoted thing in Israel shall be theirs.

45:18 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: In the first month, in the first day of the month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish; and thou shalt cleanse the sanctuary.
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin-offering , and put it upon the door-posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the ledge of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
20 And so thou shalt do on the seventh day of the month for every one that erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye make atonement for the house.
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering.
23 And the seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt-offering to Jehovah, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven days; and a he-goat daily for a sin-offering. 24 And he shall prepare a meal-offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and a hin of oil to an ephah.
25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, in the feast, shall he do the like the seven days; according to the sin-offering , according to the burnt-offering, and according to the meal-offering, and according to the oil.

Why is there a need for sin offering if this is yet future? Was the blood of Christ not sufficient? Is there one way for the Gentiles and another for the Jews?

Why would you offer sacrifices for a memorial when God had no pleasure in them in the first place?


Heb. 10:8 Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the which are offered according to the law),

You see, what view of eschatology do they teach? Is it one-sided? We are a product of our enviroment. I grew up in Pre-trib Pre-Mill for my entire life up until 3 years ago. It wasn't till I heard a different view(for the first time in my life) that I started studying different views. Was I surprised by not only how many people hold a different view than mine but also how many different views there are.

 

Part of your problem and that of other people who are 'covenant theologians' is they look backward as Gentile Christians rather then setting themselves in the crowd of Jewish people that the major and minor prophets represented.

Try to tell me the number of Gentile writers of any of the books of the Bible. I have not made a thorough study of this but I know that Luke was a Gentile physician who was a companion of the Apostle Paul. Luke wrote the Book of Luke and Acts. I will go out of a limb and say that almost all of the writers were Israelites/Jews.

So if you even think that God was using O.T. prophets for the use of totally spiritualizing truth for Gentiles who are looking backward, you are not totally correct. The prophets prophecied against the sins of the Israelites and at times dropped in prophecies about end time events as well as truth about the virgin birth of Jesus via Mary.

I believe that all of the writers of the N.T. books were Israelites except Luke the physician. So when you study the Bible remember that the truth of the Gospel was first given to the Israelites and then later to us. We are only 'grafted into the olive tree' [Romans 11:24] because of the Jewish rejection of Christ [John 1:11-12] which led to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The Jews via the lineage of Abraham are the 'natural branches.' [Romans 11:24]

Remember that not one Jewish prophet of the O.T. predicted the church age. This is guaranteed when you study Ephesians 3:1-9. The great Apostle Paul spoke of the age of grace as in contradistinction to the era of the Law, as 'the mystery' [vs. 3a,] and 'the fellowship of the mystery' [vs. 9a] Moreover, this dispensation of grace [vs. 2] was hidden from the beginning of the world. [vs. 9b] Who hid this salvation by faith through the benefits of the Cross? Answer: God hid it! [vs. 9b] God through Paul in Ephesians calls this special age of grace, 'the church.' [vs. 10] Paul says, 'Now . . . . the church is manifesting the manifold wisdom of God.' The church was never called the church in O.T. times; they were, however, the people of God or the assembly.

'Part of your problem and that of other people who are 'covenant theologians' is they look backward as Gentile Christians rather then setting themselves in the crowd of Jewish people that the major and minor prophets represented.

Try to tell me the number of Gentile writers of any of the books of the Bible. I have not made a thorough study of this but I know that Luke was a Gentile physician who was a companion of the Apostle Paul. Luke wrote the Book of Luke and Acts. I will go out of a limb and say that almost all of the writers were Israelites/Jews.

So if you even think that God was using O.T. prophets for the use of totally spiritualizing truth for Gentiles who are looking backward, you are not totally correct. The prophets prophecied against the sins of the Israelites and at times dropped in prophecies about end time events as well as truth about the virgin birth of Jesus via Mary.

I believe that all of the writers of the N.T. books were Israelites except Luke the physician. So when you study the Bible remember that the truth of the Gospel was first given to the Israelites and then later to us. We are only 'grafted into the olive tree' [Romans 11:24] because of the Jewish rejection of Christ [John 1:11-12] which led to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

The Jews via the lineage of Abraham are the 'natural branches.' [Romans 11:24]

Remember that not one Jewish prophet of the O.T. predicted the church age. This is guaranteed when you study Ephesians 3:1-9. The great Apostle Paul spoke of the age of grace as in contradistinction to the era of the Law, as 'the mystery' [vs. 3a,] and 'the fellowship of the mystery' [vs. 9a] Moreover, this dispensation of grace [vs. 2] was hidden from the beginning of the world. [vs. 9b] Who hid this salvation by faith through the benefits of the Cross? Answer: God hid it! [vs. 9b] God through Paul in Ephesians calls this special age of grace, 'the church.' [vs. 10] Paul says, 'Now . . . . the church is manifesting the manifold wisdom of God.' The church was never called the church in O.T. times; they were, however, the people of God or the assembly.

Ray said before: 'I believe Ezekiel chapters 35-48 speaks of Israel becoming a
nation, and other future events like the building of Christ's future
Millennial Temple in Jerusalem, Israel. Your type of thinking along
with others have to twist the Scripture like a snake moves
through the deep grass.'


You said, 'This is where futurism errors. You take passages that have "spiritual"
fullfilment and try to make them physical. Futurist also take part of Ez.and
make it the Millinial Reign, which has major flaws.'

Ray is saying, 'There are not errors or flaws in the future of the Lord's plans for Jews or Gentile Christians.'


Rays is saying, 'Trying to twist the Prophet Ezekiel's words coming from the Lord is a most serious tragedy. All of these Ezekiel passages are merely quoted or mistranslated, including
your--- Ez 37:19 say unto them, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Behold, I will take
the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel
his companions; and I will put them with it, even with the stick of Judah,
and make them one stick, and they shall be one in my hand.'

This has no overlay with N.T. theology. Ezekiel is speaking of the coming together of the future, to his time, the nation of Israel. Most of us have lived to see this prophecy fulfilled in 1947. I believe this was the year that they became a nation again.'

Ray is saying, 'You wrote fulfilled. This is an atrocious interpretation by using Ephesians 2:13.'


You said, 'Ez 37: 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be
an everlasting covenant with them; and I will place them, and multiply
them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.'

Ray: This will be fulfilled during Christ's 1,000 year reign in Jerusalem. [Zechariah 14:9 & 17] By you saying this 'Paul quotes it as a fulfillment in II COR 6:16 And what agreement hath a temple of God with idols? for we are a temple of the living God; even as God said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people,' you are as lost as that 'goose in a hurricane.'


You said, 'Ez 37: 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.'

Ray: 'This verse above speaks of all Jewish saints and Gentile Christians who will be included in Christ's reign over the earth for 1,000 years.'

What you said below is not any where near to to exegeting the Scripture.

You said, 'Again fulfilled in the New Covenant.

Eph 2:20 being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets,
Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;21 in whom each several
building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;22 in
whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.'

You said, 'Now the problem with the Millinial Reign being described in Ez. is the return of
sacrifices. Futurist try to get around this by saying its just a memorial
ceremony, but Ez. says its for sin offerings:

Ez 44:27 And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, into the inner
court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin-offering , saith the
Lord Jehovah.
28 And they shall have an inheritance: I am their inheritance; and ye shall
give them no possession in Israel; I am their possession.
29 They shall eat the meal-offering, and the sin-offering, and the
trespass-offering; and every devoted thing in Israel shall be theirs.

45:18 Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: In the first month, in the first day of the
month, thou shalt take a young bullock without blemish; and thou shalt
cleanse the sanctuary.
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin-offering , and put it
upon the door-posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the ledge of
the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
20 And so thou shalt do on the seventh day of the month for every one that
erreth, and for him that is simple: so shall ye make atonement for the
house.
21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month, ye shall have the
passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22 And upon that day shall the prince prepare for himself and for all the
people of the land a bullock for a sin-offering.
23 And the seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt-offering to
Jehovah, seven bullocks and seven rams without blemish daily the seven
days; and a he-goat daily for a sin-offering. 24 And he shall prepare a
meal-offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and a hin of
oil to an ephah.
25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, in the feast, shall
he do the like the seven days; according to the sin-offering , according to
the burnt-offering, and according to the meal-offering, and according to the
oil.'

Ray is saying, 'Yes the 'animal sacrifices' will be a memorial to the Lord's past history in the affairs of human being, in this case, for the most part Jewish people.' We look back to the Last Supper/ the beginning of the Holy Communion as a memorial also. Get used to it; it's coming, if you love Jesus.'

You said, 'Why is there a need for sin offering if this is yet future? Was the blood of
Christ not sufficient? Is there one way for the Gentiles and another for the
Jews?'

Ray: 'It will be a memorial of how Jehovah dealth with the Israelite people in distant past generations. Christ blood is the only reality that can cleanse anyone's sins. There is no other way than to trust in Jesus as Savior. There is but one plan for Jews and Gentiles and it is to have faith in the Lord.'

You said, 'Why would you offer sacrifices for a memorial when God had no pleasure in them in the first place?'

Ray: 'The time of the Millennial reign will be a different era/dispensation. Things will change.'

You said, 'Heb. 10:8 Saying above, Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings
and sacrifices for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein (the
which are offered according to the law).

Ray is saying, 'Study Ezekiel and you will see that the Lord calls Israel, 'His land.' [36:20] The multiple 12 tribes of Israel will become one nation and with one King. [37:22] Ezekiel chapter 40-41 gives the measurements of Christ's future Temple. [41:4 and many other references to His Temple] We will worship on the sabbath. [46:1-4 & 12] There will also be a renewal of Jewish feast days. [46:9] Another reference to His sanctuary [47:12; 48:8 & 10] There will be no need for the Ark of the Covenant, because Jehovah-shammah will be in His holy Temple. [4:35]

Now you are beginning to understand what Ezekiel is saying to his assembly several centuries ago. Remember to look at things through Jewish eyes. Messianic Christians understand these prophecies as do I. Give it more than some thought.

Regards,
Ray

 

Then I opened my bible and studied for myself. I no longer relied on my tradition.

 

Bob,

Thanks for your explanation; I hope Grasshopper reads it with unbiased thought..

You said, 'Well then "until 3 years ago" you had a logical and well reasoned framework
for the timeline of the "feast of the birds" listed in the texts in both OT and
NT given above.

Ray is saying, 'I want to pick up on just this part of the post that you offered, though I agree entirely with all of your jotted down, literal data of future coming realities. Revelation 20: 6 tells us that after Christ's Millennial reign over the entire earth [Zechariah 14:9] 'Satan will be loosed who had previously been bound for 1,000 years. [20:2-3]

In verse eight of Revelation chapter twenty, as God concludes earthly human history, there will be the Battle of Gog and Magog which will take place in Jerusalem, Israel. [vs. 9] 'the beloved city.' Dr. Walter R. Roehrs, Ph.D. says, 'Ezekiel was taken to Babylon in 597 B.C. and called to prophetic service five years later. He was active for at least twenty-two years.' So it has been 2,596 years until today that the prophecy of this noteworthy battle has not yet taken place in time. It has never been written down in any history either secular or religious.

Revelation 20 is one prophecy; and Ezekiel 39:1 is the same prophecy prophecied over 2,500 years ago. But what is really striking is you spoke of the 'feast of the birds' just prior to my statements above. Ezekiel 39:4 indicates that the fallen soldiers will be a feast for all different flocks of 'ravenous birds . . . '

Gog is mentioned in Ezekiel 39:1, 6, and twice in verse 11. This last verse indicates that the invading armies of men will be interred in the ground 'in graves in Israel.' I know you know this but I am saying this for the sake of others who are students of the Word of God.

The next event in God's historicity of the world of human beings will be that Satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire. [Revelation 20:10] and then the final judgment for sinners of all time, from Genesis until this very future hour and day. God calls it the Great White Throne Judgment. [20:11] After this will be the 'New Heaven and the New Earth.' [21:1] ENDS MY POST.

Until 3 years ago - you had the 1000 years meaning "a thousand years" in
Rev 20.
Until 3 years ago - the saints of Rev 20 were actually "the saints".
Until 3 years ago - the devil of Rev 20 was "really" the Devil.
Until 3 years ago - God on His great white throne judging the people of the
2nd resurrection was "really God" judging "real people" raised in a "real
resurrection" at the end of a "real 1000 years".
Until 3 years ago.

Rev. Dr. Berrian, Th.D.
'Ray'