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Once saved always saved

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by TP, Dec 31, 2004.

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  1. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    I know many Non-denominational people believe in "Once Saved always saved". I am curious, do Baptists believe in this concept? Or is each baptist, or each congregation able to believe this or not. I have discussed this topic on other boards, but those people do not call themselves baptist, or anything else other than either Christian or evangelical. Do baptists believe in 'Once saved always saved'? And is it a required belief?

    Along the same lines: I know that baptist accept NO works at all to attain salvation. But can our evil works help us to loose salvation? I think this would go with the above question.

    peace
     
    #1 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  2. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. Eph 4:30

    And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28

    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. I John 5:13
     
    #2 Ps104_33, Dec 31, 2004
  3. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Is this just another attempt by a Roman Catholic to "divide and conquer"? This has always been a common tactic with Roman catholics on this board. Find an area where Bible believers disagree and start a fire.
     
    #3 Ps104_33, Dec 31, 2004
  4. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Once saved is saved once. It has been attacked by more than one catholic, and several baptists, also.

    Psalms 51:12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

    (Nortice, David's not asking for salvation to be restored, but the joy of it)

    Isaiah 44:22 I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

    (Notice the past tense)

    John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

    I also reject infant baptism as salvific, as you would have to believe the baby loses salvation when it sins. I don't believe salvation is lost, ever.

    Every debate ends up turning into word games, each trying to trip the other up, so I will probably sit out most of this one, unless a real good question comes up.
     
    #4 Bro. Curtis, Dec 31, 2004
  5. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: Is this just another attempt by a Roman Catholic to "divide and conquer"? This has always been a common tactic with Roman catholics on this board.

    Response: I will take this as: Not all agree. However, there is no intent to divide and conquer. Infact, I don't even plan on argueing this situation. I just wanted to know. On Carm when this comes up protestants are often divided. I just didn't know where Baptist stand. Someone mentioned it in another post so I thought I would ask.

    peace
     
    #5 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  6. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    You claim to be a Roman Catholic priest and you dont know what Baptists believe? C,mon TP. You can at least be honest.
     
    #6 Ps104_33, Dec 31, 2004
  7. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    TP:

    If I understand correctly, a Catholic loses his salvation if he commits a mortal sin. If he confesses that sin to a priest, he regains his salvation? Does he lose his salvation every time he commits a mortal sin, and regain salvation everytime he confesses to a priest?

    Is this an accurate understanding of Catholic salvation? If so, it seems as if the Catholic teaching of salvation is entirely based on works.

    Can you clarify?

    PA
     
    #7 Priscilla Ann, Dec 31, 2004
  8. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    A poster claimed that If I were a catholic priest I should know what Baptists believe, and then told me to be truthful. Well, why would I know what baptists believe? I live in Wisconsin and we have very few Baptists here. In seminary we read many Lutheran theologians like Barth, but I never read a Baptist theologian. On message boards I am at carm and there is a mishmash of denominations, but I don't know any who are baptist on the catholic board, however I do know that most Non-denom churches tend to follow baptist theology, so I have a good guess what baptists believe about the topic, but I am not sure. That is the truth.

    peace
     
    #8 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  9. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You asked: If I understand correctly, a Catholic loses his salvation if he commits a mortal sin.

    Response: Catholics do not tend to use the word 'salvation' in the same way as you are using it. We recognize there is imminent salvation in the Gospel of John, and in some quotes of Paul, and we do not deny the concept. However, we tend to use the word salvation for end times. What happens to a person after they are judged. If they go to heaven they are saved. If they do not go to heaven they are NOT saved. We do not talk about loosing and gaining 'salvation'.

    The language that a catholic uses is what is my current relationship with God in his Son Jesus Christ. Either a person is "In the State of Grace", or the are "Not in the State of grace". Being in the state of grace is the equivilent of how you would use the word saved. (I hope this clarification of terms makes sense).

    If a person is in a state of Grace they are filled with the Holy Spirit, and are in the fulness of Sonship of adoption calling out Abba, Father. However, we can rupture our relationship with God so badly that we ourselves reject God's grace. Even though he continues to love us and call us, we, through our choice/actions have denied God, and we have broken the relationship. In this case we are no longer in the state of grace. Example: If person became an atheist, they are denying God, and cut themselves from the Grace of God.

    You then said: If he confesses that sin to a priest, he regains his salvation?

    Response: The normal means of reconciling with God according to the Catholic Church after initial justification of faith, repentance, Baptism, is the Sacrament of Penance. Of course, we are all called to repent and constantly turn to God, this much we can agree to. However, where we would disagree is this: Catholics Read John 20:20 as the disciples given the authority to forgive sin(Actually, it the power of the Holy Spirit which was given to them that forgives the sin, but uses the priest as the means). So the person confesses and the priest absolves. It is a way for Christ to continue to act in the world, but he acts through the priest. After Confession, the person is restored to a state of Grace.

    You ask: Does he lose his salvation every time he commits a mortal sin, and regain salvation everytime he confesses to a priest?

    Response: Totally severing your relationship with God through Mortal sin is more difficult than you think. It is not a daily, in and out of the state of grace. A person never has to commit mortal sin.

    Also, confession is the normal means of reconciling with God. However, if you are alone and there is no possible way to get to confession. You can be forgiven by making a perfect act of Contrition(sorrow for your sins) on the condition that you will go to confession when you are able.

    You asked: Is this an accurate understanding of Catholic salvation?

    Response: Actually it is only a small part of salvation and grace. We never even spoke of the need for Faith, hope and love, the need for the Grace of God to permeate our life as gift. All of those aspects are Very important.

    You: If so, it seems as if the Catholic teaching of salvation is entirely based on works.

    Reponse: Actually no. Works is when you earn heaven like a paycheck. It is trying to Obligate God into giving you heaven. NOBODY can obligate God to do anything. However, God will keep his promises when he gives them. Forcing an obligation on God is where works comes in(God I did this so you OWE me).

    peace
     
    #9 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Almost every Baptist goes for this. There are Calvinists and there are Arminians (Free will) among Baptists -- but even so -- once saved always saved (OSAS) is often found even among the Arminians among the Baptists.

    However the Calvnist Baptists will often point out that it is inconsistent for an Arminian to also claim OSAS because it would be the same as arguing that you have free will as a lost person but then lose free will once you become saved.

    (Though I am Arminian - I happen to agree with that particular Calvinist criticism of Arminians who claim OSAS).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #10 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2004
  11. TP

    TP Guest

    Bob,

    Thank you for your answer. It was helpful.

    peace
     
    #11 TP, Dec 31, 2004
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is the same view that an Arminian would take who does not claim OSAS - except we would use the term "saved" where you use the phrase "state of grace".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Dec 31, 2004
  13. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    TP,

    Greetings. Unlike many others here I am not a "Romaphobe". Most baptists do hold to "once saved always saved". I've always thought mainline baptists tend to be "2 point Calvinists", believing in total depravity and perseverence of the saints, but disagreeing with limited atonement, irresistible grace, and unconditional election.

    There is however alot of variability among Baptists. This stems from the fact that baptist churches are individual entities, not dependent on a central governing body. There are quite a few "Calvinistic" baptists, who do hold to all 5 points but tend still to be premillenial rapturist in terms of their eschatology.

    "Free will baptists" generally believe that salvation can be lost. These churches tend to be smaller and often more rural.

    I think honestly you'll find most baptists simply accept wholesale the idea of "once saved always saved", only then going back and "proving it" scripturally.

    I personally do subscribe to the view of eternal security since I think the NT (as a whole and in individual books) depicts salvation as being something which brings a permanent change.

    Happy new year!

    [​IMG]
     
    #13 Charles Meadows, Dec 31, 2004
  14. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    TP:

    With regard to "being in a state of grace" or "not in a state of grace", do you have scriptural references?

    It is my understanding that we are saved by grace which comes through faith (Eph. 2:8-9).
     
    #14 Priscilla Ann, Dec 31, 2004
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Hi TP,

    Would you give an example of how a Christian ruptures their relationship with God?

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #15 steaver, Dec 31, 2004
  16. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    Of course none of this is Scriptural.
     
    #16 Ps104_33, Jan 1, 2005
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    You absolutely do deny this "Truth". It is not a "concept" as you say. That would leave it up to opinion. Salvation IS offered as "imminent". You cannot begin to understand OSAS until you understand this undeniable biblical Truth and this truth is tied directly to "born again" which Jesus said was a "must" for salvation. I have yet to speak with a catholic who understands this conversion which Jesus spoke of.

    There is NO " salvation " judgment awaiting the born again in Christ. Here again you error because you in reality DO NOT recognize there is an imminent salvation taught first by Jesus and confirmed by His apostles through the Holy Spirit.

    The language is fine but it doesn't change the Truth of the matter. If one is in the "State of Grace" then that person has been (past tense) saved and is (present tense) saved and will be (future tense) saved as declared in scriptures. If one is NOT in the "State of Grace" then they have NEVER been saved, nor are saved nor will be saved unless they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

    I'm sorry, I overlooked your example and then asked you for one.

    If a person becomes an atheist after apparently believing in Jesus Christ, it proves that they were NEVER saved and therefore have not lost their salvation or "state of grace" but merely never had it. This is the teaching of the scriptures...here is one example; " They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us ". (1 John 2:19)

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #17 steaver, Jan 1, 2005
  18. TP

    TP Guest

    Greetings,

    You said: There is NO " salvation " judgment awaiting the born again in Christ.

    Response: So According to Mt 25, when God separate the sheep and the goats, and one group go to heaven and the others to hell. You will not be there? You will never have to stand before Jesus and accept his Judgement(but also his love). I think we all will be before the Judgement seat, its scriptural.

    You said: If one is NOT in the "State of Grace" then they have NEVER been saved, nor are saved nor will be saved unless they receive Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

    Response: Here is one of the problems with OSAS. It clashes with Assurity of faith. The two doctrines don't work together, because what happens when someone sins grievacely? The answer man give is: "they were never really saved to begin with". However, they were SURE of their faith and they knew they were saved. If they had Assurity of faith and KNEW they were saved. YOu CANNOT say that they were not really saved to begin with. So you are left with: The Murderer, the Atheist, the Grievous Sinner still is saved, or you sacrifice Assurity of Faith.

    You said: If a person becomes an atheist after apparently believing in Jesus Christ, it proves that they were NEVER saved and therefore have not lost their salvation or "state of grace" but merely never had it.

    Response: Perfect example of what I was just saying. If that person was Sure of his faith and knew his was saved in Jesus Christ. But after becoming an atheist you say he was Never saved? This destroys assurity of salvation. You are left constantly asking: Am I REALLY saved or not.

    peace
     
    #18 TP, Jan 1, 2005
  19. padredurand

    padredurand Well-Known Member
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    Steaver wrote:

    But what are we to do with the example given in Hebrews of those who were saved and have fallen away?

    Twice fallen, always fallen?
     
    #19 padredurand, Jan 1, 2005
  20. Priscilla Ann

    Priscilla Ann Member

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    TP:

    It has been my experience that Catholics are the ones usually asking, "Am I really SAVED or not."

    I recall about 10 years ago when my husband and I were in RCIA classes. In a group discussion, a woman asked this question of a nun who was working with our group: "When I visit the elderly in the nursing homes, sometimes they ask if they will go to heaven when they die. What should I tell them?" The nun's response was this: "I tell them that IF they have lived a good life, they will PROBABLY go to purgatory for awhile, and then probably to heaven."

    TP, is this the kind of assurance you offer the members of your parish? Again, scriptural references would be helpful, especially for the probability of purgatory "if you have lived a good life."

    PA
     
    #20 Priscilla Ann, Jan 1, 2005
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