Once saved always saved

TP:

Since when we confess our sins, the blood of Jesus purifies us from all unrighteousness (see 1 John 1:7-10), what would remain to be purified in purgatory?

PA

 

That is true - for as 2Cor 5 says "WE must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ"

This is the 5 point Calvinist view. 3 point Calvinists do not agree with that - neither do Arminians.

True. This is what I call "retro-deleting assurance". For a 5 point Calvinist you can not KNOW you are saved until you have lived your entire life to SEE that 10 years from now you did not backslide and reveal that you never were saved.

Of course - a 4 point Calvinist would NOT have this problem. Their's is the best model for OSAS.

That is the 4 point Calvinist view - they give up the "P" in TULIP which stands for "perseverance". In their view you do not lose salvation when you become an atheist 10 years from now.

As for the Bible basis for losing salvation - consider the case in MAtt 18 - of Forgiveness Revoked!

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is rock solid Catholicism according to The Faith Explained by Leo Tress -- a Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II and according to the late Fr. Ken Ryan of Catholic Digest.

There the argument is made that Purgatory is a "common sense" doctrine (not based on the Bible) -- and the "reason" is that most people are NOT bad enough to go to hell forever and most people are not "soo good" that they would go directly to heaven. So "a little purging is in order".

Purgatory is not the place where a sinner earns salvation - it is the place of torment where they suffer for their sin's "consequences" until they are "paid up" and ready for heaven.

(Recall that nobody in Purgatory goes to hell).

Also note that if you really really really LOVE your departed loved one - you will NOT LET God continue to torment them in Purgatory. Rather you will earn some plenary indulgences to stop Him.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Scripture never says "only those who have stopped sinning may go to heaven".

Scripture DOES say that "For as many as are IN CHRIST are a NEW CREATION" 2Cor 5.

Scripture DOES say "HAVING BEEN Justified by faith WE HAVE PEACE with God" Romans 5.

Hence there is no mention of purgatory in all of scripture. It is simply something the RCC made up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

TP,

I have to agree with Priscilla Ann that there is no need for a Purgatory, only for the blood of Jesus. How did that doctrine originate in the RCC?

As to the doctrine of once saved, always saved, like you I do not see much “security” in the doctrine of “eternal security”. In fact, I sometimes refer to it as the doctrine of “eternal insecurity”. Why? Virtually every proponent of the doctrine acknowledges that there are those who by all appearances and by their own testimony have been believers, yet quit practicing their faith and live for the remainder of their lives in rebellion against Christ. In order to explain these many cases, an argument is made that such ones merely appeared to be saved, but actually weren’t. Even Calvin talked about this in his Institutes(3:2:11-12).

“…experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that, even in their own judgment, there is no difference between them. …In the elect alone He implants the living root of faith so that they persevere even to the end. Thus we dispose of the objection that if God truly displays his grace, it must endure for ever. There is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent.”

So some may appear to be saved and they believe themselves to be saved, yet they are not among the elect. They have been enlightened “with a present sense of grace” which proves to be temporary. They actually have been marked beforehand for destruction, but God gives them a sense of grace.

Now, where is the security in that? How can one know whether he is elect, or whether he merely has been given by God a “present sense of grace”, thus believing that he is elect, yet he is reprobate, never was saved, and will be lost? Does one go by subjective feeling? Others have felt they were saved, yet have proven themselves not to be saved (continuing in that way of thinking.) So how can one know? Thus it is a doctrine of insecurity. By that way of thinking, only God knows if you are saved or not. Thus, it is the doctrine of “Eternal Insecurity”.

In fact, I remember discussing this teaching with one of my seminary professors. I was surprised at how emotional and visibly agitated he became as I sat there, a wet-behind-the-ears first year seminary student, and presented passages calling that doctrine into question. My professor squirmed at the topic, I believe, because there is no way for one holding the doctrine to know he is saved other than a subjective feeling – the same subjective feeling that others had, who proved not to have been saved, by that way of thinking.

I, on the other hand, do not have to wonder whether my faith is just an illusion or not. I don’t have to worry about whether I am saved or whether I just think I’m saved. Jesus “is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) God loved each and every person, including me, and sent His Son to take my place and bear my penalty. I have accepted the gift. I have put my faith in Him, confessed Him as Lord, buried my old man in the water, and been joined to Him as His disciple. Sometimes I am strong. Other times I stumble and bumble along. When I sin, it hurts; but I do not despair. Jesus loves me. I just keep going. I confess my sin. I keep on trusting in His sacrifice. I keep on trusting in his grace and power to transform me. God will not reject me any more than a good father would reject a loving, submissive child. Just as you, dear reader, would not reject your child because of immaturity or weakness, so are we accepted in Jesus in spite of our weakness and immaturity. We are not saved by our own perfection. We are saved by a relationship with the Perfect One. There is security in that!

1 John 1:5-9 says:

5 And this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I believe in security for the believer. It is conditional security. That condition is not perfection, nor is it a given level of achievement, nor is it a certain degree of sinlessness, but it is an abiding, obedient, faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior that has us following Jesus, albeit imperfectly. John says, “…if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.” Continual cleansing from sin comes as we walk in the light, not in the darkness.

In Him,

Bob

 

have to agree with Priscilla Ann that there is no need for a Purgatory, only for the blood of Jesus. How did that doctrine originate in the RCC?

The idea of a preparatory place is not new. Irenaeus believed that all souls had to go to Hades until the resurrection. He felt that the soul needed to be prepared before meeting God.

 

You have not studied the passage and therefore do error in your understanding of it. This judgment occurs after the rapture which I will be a part of, either changed in the twinkling of an eye or raised from the grave, and also occurs after the seven year tribulation. The sheep represent those saved during the tribulation. Both Gentile and Jew. These will make up most of the mellennial kingdom. The goats represent the unsaved Gentiles, those who rejected God and followed the antichrist in persecuting God's children.

This is very clear if you would read verse (31) ... "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory :"

You see? Jesus is on the throne in Jeruselem when making this judgment. The saved will have been raptured and will already be with Him. You have not studied the passage and therefore misuse it.

Yes I will stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Only the saved will attend this judgment for it is a judgment of deeds while done in the body.... " For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad ". (2 Cor 5:10)

Unless you believe that deeds determine heaven or hell, you can see that the judgment seat of Christ has nothing to do with salvation. It is for the saved.

You are confusing "Assurity of Faith" with "Born Again". Having assurance of faith is not what keeps us from transgressing away from faith in Christ. Receiving the Holy Spirit is what accomplishes this. Assurance is built over time, experiences, prayer and study just to mention a few.

Again, being sure of your faith and being "born again" are two different topics. However one must first be born again before they can ever move into the assurance stage. There is no such thing as a Christian who is SURE of their faith and then they become an atheist or something unChristlike. It is an oxymoron. Becoming an atheist proves that they DID NOT have assurance. Assurance comes only after conversion. See how your statement debunks itself? I am not telling you anything that has not been given you in the scriptures. Did you bother to understand and read 1 John 2:19 which I quoted? " They went out from us, but they were not of us ...." Take it up with the Lord. I am only repeating God's word to you!

Can't you see? The person could not have been SURE because they rejected Christ. I don't care what they said or how many deeds they done for the church. One who is truly saved will never reject Christ. They cannot because Christ is joined with them and the two become one. BORN AGAIN!!

Do you understand "Born again"??

God Bless!

 

Very good question padredurand.

If you study precept upon precept in God’s Word, you will ultimately conclude that OSAS is truth. With this in mind ask yourself if Hebrews 6 is absolutely clear that it is speaking about a Christian becoming lost. Since God’s word cannot contradict itself we must first conclude that this passage cannot be teaching that the saved somehow become lost again. So what is the writer saying then? It is really quite simple if you read it as it is being spoken in its full context.

First back up a bit. Who is the letter addressed to? The answer is Christians. The writer says … “ Leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and faith toward God. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do , if God permit .” (1-3)

Now picking up where you begun….

" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance …".

Read the entire passage. The writer is saying that he is not going to go into a salvation sermon (1-3) because ye are believers already, and if it were possible for a believer to fall away, ye ain’t coming back anyhows! You would be condemned! No one can get saved twice!

So all the writer is saying is that he isn’t going to preach “get saved” to the already saved because it would be pointless. The saved could not fall away and then be saved again. It is an impossible thing. We cannot determine it any other way because too many passages teach that we are eternally secure in Christ. If this passage meant a loss of salvation, then God’s word would be contradictive. If you believe it is, then you might as well pitch it in the dumpster! The writer was simply expressing a point. That is that you can experience salvation once and once only! Don’t preach get saved to the saved!

If you read the letter of Hebrews in it’s entirety, you will see that he expresses very clearly that we are secure in Christ if we are in Christ.

God Bless!

 

I cannot find anywhere in Matt 18 where it speaks about "salvation". Isn't Jesus speaking about the kingdom of heaven (23) ? If your in heaven then aren't you saved?

God Bless!

 

steaver:

Thanks for the above post on Hebrews 6. Context is everything, isn't it?

PA

 

The conditions you have listed are not conditions at all. They are the "results" of being born again.

Tell me Bob. Is "abiding, obedient, faith in Jesus as Lord and Savior that has us following Jesus, albeit imperfectly" what saved you? Is this something you do in order to keep yourself saved?

God Bless!

 

Your welcome and yes it is! I once tried to study scripture by reading a verse here and a verse there. Didn't learn a thing and confused myself something awful. There is a 20/20 rule that I heard another believer say one time. Read 20 verses before the verse and 20 after the verse before you jump to any conclusions. Good advice, plus scripture interprets scripture. One passage cannot contradict another. There must be an explanation. A not so clear passage cannot overthrow a crystal clear passage. Look at all the passages used to overthrow OSAS. They are all vague or taken out of context. While the passages supporting OSAS are very clear as a bell.

God Bless!

 

TP, then what are we all argueing about?

 

What's not so clear with verse 6? You can't ignore the immediate context either.

There are five specific qualities or characteristics listed; Those who have:
</font>

• once been enlightened</font>

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• tasted of the heavenly gift</font>

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• been made partakers of the Holy Spirit</font>

</font>

• tasted the good word of God</font>

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• and the powers of the age to come</font>

Unbelievers cannot have once possessed enlightenment, tasted the heavenly gift, partaken of the Holy Spirit, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come. Who's spoken of here? It has to be believers. What does verse 6 say these believers have done? It says they have fallen away. I'm not talking about being snatched from the Father's hand, nor being separated from the love of Christ by any outside power. Plainly read and understood Hebrews 6 says that believers fall away.

And for 400 years, those that argue a believer can make a shipwreck of faith have said the same thing to the OSAS crowd. Does that mean we can't have a meaningful discussion? Should I assume that any text I may present will be considered "vague and taken out of context" without discussion?

 

I have a question concerning purgatory and prayers for the dead.
How does one know when to stop praying for an individual sufering in the fires of purgatory?
If Grandma's release from this torment is dependant on the prayers of those still here on earth, what if we stopped one or two masses too soon? wouldnt that be tragic?
What if Uncle Francis has been out of purgatory for 50 years already and his family is still saying masses for him?
Does the pope have some kind of connection to this unseen world?

 

I cannot find anywhere in Matt 18 where it speaks about "salvation". Isn't Jesus speaking about the kingdom of heaven (23) ? If your in heaven then aren't you saved?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]In Matt 18 Christ speaks of one who is fully forgiven - who then later refuses to forgiven someone else on human terms. He then is forced to pay to the king all that was forgiven and Christ said "SO shall my Heavenly Father do to EACH OF YOU if you do not forgive your brother from your heart".

He is claiming that FORGIVENESS RECEIVED is the basis for our forgiving others. Then He claims that if we enter that state and REFUSE to forgive others - our OWN forgiveness will be revoked.

The story is powerful in that the end is of the form "SO shall My heavenly Father DO TO EACH ONE of you..."

It is hard to escape this warning about forgiveness revoked at its use in motivating right behavior.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A plenary indulgence is a blank-check for unlimited suffering - that will clear you over the heavenly gates by a mile. The problem is that you don't "know for sure" that God is going to honor the check - so the RCC incourages you to "keep on earning" those plenary indulgences for the SAME loved one "just to be sure".

A little anxiety for the flock you say?

In Christ,

Bob

 

And what would this cost me? I am just a poor man.
Do they take MasterCard?

 

You could always fly to Jerusalem and walk the stations of the cross - praying at each station and earning a plenary indulgence at the end of the course!

MasterCard accepted by airlines and hotels.

In Christ,

Bob