Are the Church and the Kingdom the Same?

I can buy that.

Ed

 

"I guess that Bro. Tony and I just contrasted Dispensationalist and non-Dispensationist views."---Dave's quote


Its okay, I love you anyway brother!

Bro Tony

 

"The kingdom belongs to Jesus. I would agree with you on the reign and rule.

Who else do you envision to be part of the Kingdom? I believe it to be all of God's people; past, present and future. Old testament believers were not called Christians, but were Israelites who were saved through faith as detailed in Hebrews 11."--Dave's quote

Actually Dave, you and I said the same thing. I agree that all God's people past, present and future are apart of the Kingdom. I just stated it that they are not all the Church. Again the Church is part of the Kingdom it is not the Kingdom.

Blessings,

Bro Tony

 

which part of the Kingdom is not a part of the church, is it Jesus,God or the Holy Spirit that is not a part of the church? I was just wondering.

 

Am I the only one who did not catch this? What is this about?

 

I am having a hard time understanding your question in light of what I shared. If you are not referring to my post then forgive me. I never said that the Kingdom was ever without the Father, Son or Holy Spirit. The question was are the Kingdom of God and the Church the same. The Church has not always been, the Kingdom of God has always been. If one precedes the other it make sense that they could not be the same. Again, the Church is part of the Kingdom of God it is not the Kingdom of God. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are eternal and the creator of all things---including the Kingdom of God.

Bro Tony

 

I caught it too, and thought someone else would address it. The door into the Church is not water baptism---the door into the Church is Jesus.

Bro Tony

 

Sorry Bro Tony;
I was referring to you mostly but "how can you have a part of a Kingdom", is my question? What else makes up the Kingdom if you know. Also, I am having trouble understanding all those that were baptized before The day of Penecost, including Jesus and what He told Peter. It may of not been called a church but there has always been a religeous body of faith believers from Abel at least.

Bill Brown:

That is "Church of Christ Doctrine"

 

I caught it too, and thought someone else would address it. The door into the Church is not water baptism---the door into the Church is Jesus.

Bro Tony </font>[/QUOTE]Amen Tony! If we say that water baptism provides entrance into the church then we are adding works to the gospel. Why? Because every believer is part of the church. The church was was created by God, not man...therefore man cannot create his rules on how to gain entry to the church.

Galatians 1:8-9 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

 

Sorry brother, let me see if I can explain my point better. I too believe you cannot have a part of the Kingdom. I believe all the Old Testament Saints were and are in the Kingdom, I dont believe they were in the Church. Even in the Book of Acts the Baptism of John is referred to as different than the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (ie. the Spirit bringing the believer into the Body of Christ, not referring to Pentecostal/Charismatic view of baptism). The Kingdom is and always has been complete. My point is in response to the op----is the Church and the Kingdom the same. Seeing as the Kingdom precedes the Church they cannot be the same. The O.T. saints who are part of the Kingdom did not know nor were they a part of the Church. Were they God's people? Yes. Were they in the Kingdom? Yes. Were they saved by grace through faith? Yes. Were they members of the Church? No. One cannot be apart of something that did not exist for them. I hope that clarifies my points. I know not everyone will agree, but I did want to share.

Blessings,
Bro Tony

 

Bro Tony;
I suspect that the majority if not all on this board might agree with you about when the church started, but I for one, believe that Christ took the church from out from under the Law to the Grace Covenant. According to the Scripture, the middle wall was torn down that we might become a part of vine as they already were, or at least those that received Jesus as the Christ. Also, they were all baptized in the clouds in the days of Moses and were even called preachers, as Noah was a preacher of righteous. I just believe He took the Church and established it up on better promises.

Acts, chapter 28
"25": And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers ,
"26": Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:


2 Peter, chapter 1
20": Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
"21": For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost .

They were moved or overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and we have the Holy Ghost within us. It was in the flesh for them but in the spirit for us.

I really must duck now!!

 

Thanks for sharing Brother Bob. There are those who agree with you on here. My point is that there has never been a time without the Kingdom, but the church was birthed at Pentecost. The Spirit of God has always been, and since creation has been moving upon the hearts of men. But the Body of Christ, ie the Church, was established by Christ after His Resurrection. I agree with your understanding of the work of the Holy Spirit in the OT as compared to the NT.

A side thought----wow we get to celebrate the Resurrection of Christ this Sunday with our brothers and sisters in Christ. Thank you Jesus. I am also glad that I am privileged to live in and celebrate Jesus' Resurrection everyday and on into eternity. Thank you Jesus!

Bro Tony

 

Bro Tony;

Amen, to your side thought, I too am thankful. I also respect your belief on the Church, you certainly are not alone but I have always preached that since Abel (at least) there has been a Church. Your beliefs are close to mine except what you call it, I think.

God Bless you and yours on this Blessed weekend,
Bro Bob

 

Hey guys - just getting in my .2 cents (.1857 cents after inflation) on when the church started. I believe God has always had a covenant people which are saved on the basis of faith. I trace this all the way back to Adam. Even within Israel saints were saved by grace through faith. That faith was in the coming Redeemer, even if they did not know what we know today. In fact even Gentiles were able to come to God on the basis of faith in the O.T. (witness Rahab, Ruth, the Ninevehites and Nebuchadnezzer). Christ displayed a better way by completing (pefecting)what was promised. But whether we disagree on when the church was started, I am sure we are all agreed that salvation is on the basis of grace through faith in Christ and Christ alone. Maranantha!

 

Bro Bob,

Agreed---God bless you as you serve Him.

Bro Tony

 

Bill Brown;

I agree the Gentiles had a way and that was to accept Israel's God. Thanks for your .1857 cents worth.

Bro Bob

 

Me too. But my .02 cents is not even worth a penny today.

Bro Tony

 

Have an Aunt that lives in Superior. Guess I should of pmed but too late now.