Once saved always saved

I am not one who relies totally on “scholars”, believing they are somehow specially inerrant, however I do give all due respect to some who have devoted their lives to the study of sound biblical doctrines. I use several tools to help me reach any conclusions concerning doctrine. One does not need a scholar to understand much of the simple English that has been translated from the Greek and Hebrew and is available for us common folk to lay hold of. We can read for ourselves while having the indwelling of the Holy Spirit helping us to understand. I incorporate “scholars”, elder Christians, prayer and Holy Spirit convictions into the positions I take. I say all of this because I do now and again post expositions from men who have a long history of study and teaching. It does not mean that I am right because they agree with me. It is just to show that I do not pull things out of thin air to make a point. There are others who have studied the scriptures quite intensely, earning many degrees, who have concluded many of the same things I have, even though I have determined many of these things simply through humble prayer and personal study of God’s Word on my own and not just because so and so believes so. Just wanted to say all of this before I post yet another “scholar” who agrees with what I said about James.

James D. Stevens , S.T.M., D.Min.
Professor and dean of religion, Liberty University B.A., Bob Jones University; M.Div., Grace Theological Seminary; S.T.M., Dallas Theological Seminary; M. Ed., Lynchburg College; D. Min., Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. Additional graduate study at Eastern Michigan University and the University of Virginia.

" Begin quote "

“If one regards the author’s purpose, the discussion will be less difficult to interpret. Many misunderstand this verse because they fail to observe two significant facts. First, James does not state that the hypothetical person “has” faith, but merely a man say he hath faith . It distinguishes the one who “possesses” from the one who merely “professes”. Secondly, conclusions are based on the question, can faith save him ? He is not asking about faith in general, but that type of faith which one has who makes claims without producing fruit. This is affirmed by the presence of the definite article in Greek meaning “the faith”. “Can that faith save him?” would be a proper translation. Which faith? That which the man claims to have. That being the case, James does not contradict Paul. Both affirm that true saving faith results in a changed life as evidence by works (Eph 2:8-10).

When Christians say empty platitudes without actually helping those in physical need, what doth it profit ? How many words fill a hungry stomach?

Even so . As the worthless of well-wishers reveal their selfishness, so barrenness in a professing believer’s life exposes his insincerity. Significantly, the Greek text states with the article, that “ the faith…is dead, being alone ". James refers specifically to the faith which is claimed, not the genuine brand.

A man may say . The author communicates his accusation through an assumed third person, allowing his remarks to be received more objectively. The matter of contention is not the works per se , but the evidence of faith. Pious expressions may seem to be religious (1:26), but actions are what people hear.

End quote .

God Bless!

 

Got a Macadonian call so came to see if I can help out. I am not known here, but that is OK. Maybe you know my big Brother...name of Jesus.

That passage in Hebrews 6 is often mis-understood by the babies, new to the Faith, and by the unsaved so I am not suprised that it is being bandied about here...

Have often chuckled when I think about the question of...who wrote Hebrews? and thought when I get to Heaven it is one of the questions I would like to ask...that is where the chuckle comes in...when I ask, "Lord, who wrote Hebrews?" He will smile and say, "Now Y'Israel, you know who wrote Hebrews, I did..."

On to Hebrews 6...interesting chapter, but must be couched for clear understanding, on what the writer is building. He has just warned the weak Hebrews, that they are on thin ice, and has urged them to get off onto solid ground...they are looking back to Judaism...They are to forsake Old Testament principles as inadequate..."Not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God"(6:1b) Repentance from dead works was an Old Testiment truth preached by John the Baptist...Faith toward God is Old Testament requirement...but what is now required is faith in our Lord Jesus Christ...Acts 20:21...

You see, the Hebrews had come a significant way toward real faith in Christ but not far enough...

They had seen the truth and seen it in a clear and unmistakable way...they were "once enlightened" v.4a

They had not only seen the truth...they had actually savored the truth. They had "tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost" v.4b...in other words they has tasted the Spiritual Character of the truth in Christ.

An example of this is the person who puts a pot on the stove and puts in all the ingredients for soup...as the meats and vegatables begin to simmer...he puts in his spoon and tastes it and decide it needs some more seasoning or that it has too much salt...

There is a great deal of difference between tasting the soup and filling a bowl and enjoying it to the fullest...

Some had taken the first tentative taste of what Christ has to offer the soul. They had "tasted of the heavenly gift"

now think on that gift for a moment...God has given us the Scriptures, He has given us His Son...He has given us His Spirit...and He gives us SALVATION!...

These Hebrews had been "once enlightened"...the word means "once for all"...their eyes had been opened to what God offered in Christ...this could not be repeated if they drew back...but there was more...

 

These Hebrews had been made "partakers of the Holy Ghost"...

The initial work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin...of righteousness, and of judgment to come...and to make Christ real to the soul...John 16:7-11...

These Hebrews had been brought to the place of repentance and to an enlightened understanding that Christ was all He claimed to be...God's answer to their every need...

But to be a "partaker" of the Holy Spirit is not to be a possessor of the Holy Spirit...to reconize the truth in Christ is not to be a Christian...at this point a person can still draw back...

Those of whom the writer is speaking had not only tasted something of the spiritual character of what was offered them in Christ...they had also tasted something of its spiritual content...

They had "tasted the good Word of God" v5a...

the types of the Tabernacle...the preaching of the Prophets...the beautiful Songs of the Psalmist...all these were fulfilled in Christ...

The New Testament Truth does not contradict the Old Testament...but rather completes it...All the tributaries...if you will allow the analogy...all the tributaries and rivers of the Old Testament pour their united floods at last into the ocean of Christ...

This had been seen by the Jews...and they had tasted of the good Word of God...

I addition to that...these people had seen "the powers of the world to come" v. 5b...many of the Hebrews to whom this Epistle is addressed had seen the miracles preformed by Jesus and His Apostles...they had seen the evidence and power of conversion in the transformed lives of thousands of their fellow Jews who had embraced the Gospel and received Christ as Savior...

but the writer said much more...isn't it amazing that God says so much in so few words...but it takes us books to explain just a few verses...

 

now here is the meat of the matter...

Although not saved...these people had been fully enlightened to the truth in Christ....

Now...It was a question of choice...on their part...Would they go on and become true believers...born-again? Or would they draw back and repudiate what they had both seen and heard?...

The wicked made their choice and turned their backs on Christ...

The writer then speaks to the implications of this fatal choice in their reaction to the Gospel...They fell away v.6a...

now comes the unconditional impossibility...It is impossible or not possible "to renew them again unto repentance" v6b...

There is no such thing as being saved...and then lost...and then saved again...

Those who deny Christ...turn from Him, even having gotten that far...prove that they never have been saved at all...

They sear their souls so that the first work of repentance can never again be wrought in their hearts...like pharaoh(sp never can spell that word right) they have hardened their hearts beyond the possibility of ever having them softened again.

 

now here brothers and sisters is the real clincher...grabs you by the lapesl and says volumns to you...

They are actually guilty of the unpardonable impiety...the irreverent act of deliberately and personally sharing in the crucifixion...forgivness was offered to those who nailed Christ to the Cross..."Father, forgive them: for they know not what they do" Luke 23:34


But no forgivness is offered to those who "crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh" Hebrews 6:6c

This is not a sin of ignorance but willful and knowing wickedness...

To endorse the crucifixion of Christ with eyes wide open to exactly Who He is...is apostacy...because they are not only guilty of deliberately and personally sharing in the crucifixion...they are also guilty of deliberately and publically shaming Christ...they "put Him to open shame" v. 6c

The writer of Hebrews then tells their final end...and does so with an illustration from nature...

A piece of ground has received good rains...and should be productive...there is no reason it should not bear useful and good fruit...but instead it only bears thistles and thorns...it is worthless...it is only fit for fire...

Ironside gives the best illustration of this I have seen...he tells of a man who inherited a barren tract of land in the west...he decided to give it a try...so he fenced off a few acres and plowed, planted, watered, and cultivated them...but at harvest time, the land produced nothing but sagebrush and scrub...there was no sense in trying anymore...because the true nature of the soil was revealed...

It is the same with apostacy...what good would it do to bring him back to repentance? The soil has revealed itself...likewise the soul has revealed itself to be unresponsive to Divine Truth...

For these people nothing is left but fire...

a stern warning indeed! and most solomn...The issues at stake when a soul is confromted with Christ are the most serious imaginable...

To trifle with the Grace of God is to offer the final insult to God...to reject His Son is an unpardonable sin...

 

as to the question of whether or not all the Hebrews in that church were saved...

Now fellas...be real...is everyone in your church saved?

 

as to the question of Salvation...and Eternal Security.

When you deny that once you are saved your salvation is secure forever no matter what...is to deny the work on the Cross, of our Savior...you deny Jesus...

You are calling Jesus...the very one who made it possible for your worthless hide, and mine, to be saved...

you are calling Him a lier...

Salvation is your position in Christ...

Want to talk about standing?...that, kind sirs, is another topic all together...

Y'Israel

 

as to the OP asking if Baptist hold to the Doctrine of Eternal Security...

The answer is a loud resounding YES...

true Baptist do believe our Salvation is secure...

"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." II Timothy 1:12

 

as to the ascertion that no rich people can be saved...

Bible doesn't say not any...says not many...

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called..." I Corinthians 1:26

There was once an English Noblewoman who often said she was saved by the letter "M"...because the Bible says not many...not, not any...

Amen.

 

OK fellas fire away...but I warn ya...the fella "what" called me over here and I are outfitted in a pretty good suit of Armor...Ephesians 6 has a description of it...

and I also carry a shotgun...

 

Welcome Y'Israel,

Your conclusions of Hebrews 6 is a very viable interpretation. I presented the "hypothetical situation" interpretation, but it is not in stone with me. I believe those who take the position that Jesus Christ can lose some of His own children, simply never took the time to fully study and understand "born again". There are differing viable interpretations, but any that claim it is the saved becoming lost are contradicting "born again" and that simply cannot be.

God Bless! Good post!

 

Steaver writes:

Here is a larger chunk of the text:

Romans 11:13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 And if the first piece of dough be holy, the lump is also; and if the root be holy, the branches are too. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob." 27 "And this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, in order that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience that He might show mercy to all.

Steaver, I am struggling to see how this passage makes your point. This passage is referring to the natural branches, the Jews. When Paul says that “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable”, does that refer to each individual Jew? Said another way: is each Jew saved unconditionally because “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable”? It would seem that you would have to believe “yes” in order for you to think it makes your point, based upon the way you applied it to our discussion.

In Him,

Bob

 

I know all about that remodeling ordeal. Very time consuming!

I'm not sure that addressing those scriptures will profit your case any brother. I must tell you, your analyses of Hebrews verses Galatians and "actual apostasy" was as far as I have ever seen any opponent of OSAS stretch the imagination to make a passage conform to a belief. But hey, give it a shot! But sadly you have already shown hundreds of viewers how far one can go rather than repenting of error.

The very scripture (Hebrews 6) that is a king pin of the OSAS opponents actually disqualifies most of the other passages they digress to in a futile attempt to prove it wrong. Esch chose to simply dismiss the word "impossible" as a "figurative type of language", but you gave it quite a mad-hatters twist!

Is "eternal life" a figurative type of language as well? Doesn't really mean "never thirsting" or "everlasting" I suppose. Or it could mean that some have actually been given eternal life while still others have actually been given eternal life, but some who have actually been given eternal life have crossed a point of no return and no longer have actual eternal life, yet others who have actually been given eternal life can actually have eternal life! Understand?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Hi, Steaver,

Hundreds of viewers will also see that how we each conduct ourselves in this discussion.

I'm not sure why you think Hebrews 6 is any more significant than the many other passages that call OSAS into question. It is a myth to think that all you have to do is have an explanation of Hebrews 6 satisfactory to oneself in order to dismiss the doctrine of conditional security.

I'm also not sure why you think that Hebrews 6 disqualifies other verses that show OSAS to be false. Your "argument", in reality, only concerns whether or not apostasy is with or without remedy. It does not address whether apostasy is possible for a believer.

As to your final paragraph, I can only say that I do see your point. You are thoroughly drubbing that straw man. I think that as long as you apply what I said in my post differently than I did you show that either you do not understand my argument, in which case you should ask for clarification, or you are purposefully misrepresenting my statements for the purpose of debate. I choose to hope that you just had trouble entering into my thought.

In Him,

Bob

 

No, it applies to each individual gift that God has ever given. All gift(s). You see it is plural. It is not only speaking of Israel's salvation gift (singular)and calling. It is an all encompassing statement.

Only those who have accepted the gift through belief. Any gift from God requires an activator, that is "belief". Once activated it is irrevocable. " they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith ".

Do you have another explanation for Paul stating "gifts" in the plural, if this statement only applies to God's offer of salvation for the Jews?

God Bless!

 

Don't recall ever making such a statement.

It does not disqualify "other verses that show OSAS to be false". There are no such verses. There are passages which require a firm understanding of "born again".

My "argument" was indeed what you have said. If Hebrews was speaking of the saved becoming lost, then it also states that there is no chance of restoration. This then contradicts many of the other passages used against OSAS, like Galatians and James which declare a call for what the opponents believe is a restoration to salvation. Of course they don't understand "born again" so they misunderstand these passages as well.

And you said; " It does not address whether apostasy is possible for a believer ." Jesus addressed this in many ways. He said it this way to the woman at the well;

"But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life (John 4:14).

Sorry Bob, I was poking some fun at your argument because it is a far stretch of the imagination. My appologies. You did clarify your argument in the end, but I'm not sure anyone can enter into your thoughts on it. It is a terrible attempt to explain away the apparent contradiction in the position you hold between Hewbrews 6 and Galatians 5. You hold that Hebrews 6 "only applies to those apostates" who cannot be restored and Galatians applies to another group of apostates which can be restored. It is just plain silly. Either you're an apostate or not and you tried to clarify by saying "actual apostate" which added nothing because you called both groups "actual apostates". This is the first time I ever heard such an interpretation. Do you know of any well rounded scholars who teach this as you do? I would like to read their thoughts on it.

God Bless!

 

A Defence of Calvinism


By C. H. Spurgeon


The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.

IT IS A GREAT THING to begin the Christian life by believing good solid doctrine. Some people have received twenty different "gospels" in as many years; how many more they will accept before they get to their journey's end, it would be difficult to predict. I thank God that He early taught me the gospel, and I have been so perfectly satisfied with it, that I do not want to know any other. Constant change of creed is sure loss. If a tree has to be taken up two or three times a year, you will not need to build a very large loft in which to store the apples. When people are always shifting their doctrinal principles, they are not likely to bring forth much fruit to the glory of God. It is good for young believers to begin with a firm hold upon those great fundamental doctrines which the Lord has taught in His Word. Why, if I believed what some preach about the temporary, trumpery salvation which only lasts for a time, I would scarcely be at all grateful for it; but when I know that those whom God saves He saves with an everlasting salvation, when I know that He gives to them an everlasting righteousness, when I know that He settles them on an everlasting foundation of everlasting love, and that He will bring them to His everlasting kingdom, oh, then I do wonder, and I am astonished that such a blessing as this should ever have been given to me!
"Pause, my soul! adore, and wonder!
Ask, 'Oh, why such love to me?'
Grace hath put me in the number
Of the Saviour's family:
Hallelujah!
Thanks, eternal thanks, to Thee!"


I suppose there are some persons whose minds naturally incline towards the doctrine of free-will. I can only say that mine inclines as naturally towards the doctrines of sovereign grace. Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, if God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I should have been! I should have run to the utmost lengths of sin, dived into the very depths of evil, nor should I have stopped at any vice or folly, if God had not restrained me. I feel that I should have been a very king of sinners, if God had let me alone. I cannot understand the reason why I am saved, except upon the ground that God would have it so. I cannot, if I look ever so earnestly, discover any kind of reason in myself why I should be a partaker of Divine grace. If I am not at this moment without Christ, it is only because Christ Jesus would have His will with me, and that will was that I should be with Him where He is, and should share His glory. I can put the crown nowhere but upon the head of Him whose mighty grace has saved me from going down into the pit. Looking back on my past life, I can see that the dawning of it all was of God; of God effectively. I took no torch with which to light the sun, but the sun enlightened me. I did not commence my spiritual life-no, I rather kicked, and struggled against the things of the Spirit: when He drew me, for a time I did not run after Him: there was a natural hatred in my soul of everything holy and good. Wooings were lost upon me-warnings were cast to the wind-thunders were despised; and as for the whispers of His love, they were rejected as being less than nothing and vanity. But, sure I am, I can say now, speaking on behalf of myself, "He only is my salvation." It was He who turned my heart, and brought me down on my knees before Him. I can in very deed, say with Doddridge and Toplady-
"Grace taught my soul to pray,
And made my eyes o'erflow;"
and coming to this moment, I can add-
"'Tis grace has kept me to this day,
And will not let me go."

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul-when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man-that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment-I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
I once attended a service where the text happened to be, "He shall choose our inheritance for us;" and the good man who occupied the pulpit was more than a little of an Arminian. Therefore, when he commenced, he said, "This passage refers entirely to our temporal inheritance, it has nothing whatever to do with our everlasting destiny, for," said he, "we do not want Christ to choose for us in the matter of Heaven or hell. It is so plain and easy, that every man who has a grain of common sense will choose Heaven, and any person would know better than to choose hell. We have no need of any superior intelligence, or any greater Being, to choose Heaven or hell for us. It is left to our own free-will, and we have enough wisdom given us, sufficiently correct means to judge for ourselves," and therefore, as he very logically inferred, there was no necessity for Jesus Christ, or anyone, to make a choice for us. We could choose the inheritance for ourselves without any assistance. "Ah!" I thought, "but, my good brother, it may be very true that we could, but I think we should want something more than common sense before we should choose aright."
First, let me ask, must we not all of us admit an over-ruling Providence, and the appointment of Jehovah's hand, as to the means whereby we came into this world? Those men who think that, afterwards, we are left to our own free-will to choose this one or the other to direct our steps, must admit that our entrance into the world was not of our own will, but that God had then to choose for us. What circumstances were those in our power which led us to elect certain persons to be our parents? Had we anything to do with it? Did not God Himself appoint our parents, native place, and friends? Could He not have caused me to be born with the skin of the Hottentot, brought forth by a filthy mother who would nurse me in her "kraal," and teach me to bow down to Pagan gods, quite as easily as to have given me a pious mother, who would each morning and night bend her knee in prayer on my behalf? Or, might He not, if He had pleased, have given me some profligate to have been my parent, from whose lips I might have early heard fearful, filthy, and obscene language? Might He not have placed me where I should have had a drunken father, who would have immured me in a very dungeon of ignorance, and brought me up in the chains of crime? Was it not God's Providence that I had so happy a lot, that both my parents were His children, and endeavoured to train me up in the fear of the Lord?
John Newton used to tell a whimsical story, and laugh at it, too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, "Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards." I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine. I recollect an Arminian brother telling me that he had read the Scriptures through a score or more times, and could never find the doctrine of election in them. He added that he was sure he would have done so if it had been there, for he read the Word on his knees. I said to him, "I think you read the Bible in a very uncomfortable posture, and if you had read it in your easy chair, you would have been more likely to understand it. Pray, by all means, and the more, the better, but it is a piece of superstition to think there is anything in the posture in which a man puts himself for reading: and as to reading through the Bible twenty times without having found anything about the doctrine of election, the wonder is that you found anything at all: you must have galloped through it at such a rate that you were not likely to have any intelligible idea of the meaning of the Scriptures."
If it would be marvelous to see one river leap up from the earth full-grown, what would it be to gaze upon a vast spring from which all the rivers of the earth should at once come bubbling up, a million of them born at a birth? What a vision would it be! Who can conceive it. And yet the love of God is that fountain, from which all the rivers of mercy, which have ever gladdened our race-all the rivers of grace in time, and of glory hereafter-take their rise. My soul, stand thou at that sacred fountain-head, and adore and magnify, for ever and ever, God, even our Father, who hath loved us! In the very beginning, when this great universe lay in the mind of God, like unborn forests in the acorn cup; long ere the echoes awoke the solitudes; before the mountains were brought forth; and long ere the light flashed through the sky, God loved His chosen creatures. Before there was any created being-when the ether was not fanned by an angel's wing, when space itself had not an existence, when there was nothing save God alone-even then, in that loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and profundity, His bowels moved with love for His chosen. Their names were written on His heart, and then were they dear to His soul. Jesus loved His people before the foundation of the world-even from eternity! and when He called me by His grace, He said to me, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."
Then, in the fulness of time, He purchased me with His blood; He let His heart run out in one deep gaping wound for me long ere I loved Him. Yea, when He first came to me, did I not spurn Him? When He knocked at the door, and asked for entrance, did I not drive Him away, and do despite to His grace? Ah, I can remember that I full often did so until, at last, by the power of His effectual grace, He said, "I must, I will come in;" and then He turned my heart, and made me love Him. But even till now I should have resisted Him, had it not been for His grace. Well, then since He purchased me when I was dead in sins, does it not follow, as a consequence necessary and logical, that He must have loved me first? Did my Saviour die for me because I believed on Him? No; I was not then in existence; I had then no being. Could the Saviour, therefore, have died because I had faith, when I myself was not yet born? Could that have been possible? Could that have been the origin of the Saviour's love towards me? Oh! no; my Saviour died for me long before I believed. "But," says someone, "He foresaw that you would have faith; and, therefore, He loved you." What did He foresee about my faith? Did He foresee that I should get that faith myself, and that I should believe on Him of myself? No; Christ could not foresee that, because no Christian man will ever say that faith came of itself without the gift and without the working of the Holy Spirit. I have met with a great many believers, and talked with them about this matter; but I never knew one who could put his hand on his heart, and say, "I believed in Jesus without the assistance of the Holy Spirit."
I am bound to the doctrine of the depravity of the human heart, because I find myself depraved in heart, and have daily proofs that in my flesh there dwelleth no good thing. If God enters into covenant with unfallen man, man is so insignificant a creature that it must be an act of gracious condescension on the Lord's part; but if God enters into covenant with sinful man, he is then so offensive a creature that it must be, on God's part, an act of pure, free, rich, sovereign grace. When the Lord entered into covenant with me, I am sure that it was all of grace, nothing else but grace. When I remember what a den of unclean beasts and birds my heart was, and how strong was my un-renewed will, how obstinate and rebellious against the sovereignty of the Divine rule, I always feel inclined to take the very lowest room in my Father's house, and when I enter Heaven, it will be to go among the less than the least of all saints, and with the chief of sinners.
The late lamented Mr. Denham has put, at the foot of his portrait, a most admirable text, "Salvation is of the Lord." That is just an epitome of Calvinism; it is the sum and substance of it. If anyone should ask me what I mean by a Calvinist, I should reply, "He is one who says, Salvation is of the Lord." I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible. "He only is my rock and my salvation." Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be a heresy; tell me a heresy, and I shall find its essence here, that it has departed from this great, this fundamental, this rock-truth, "God is my rock and my salvation." What is the heresy of Rome, but the addition of something to the perfect merits of Jesus Christ-the bringing in of the works of the flesh, to assist in our justification? And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.
"If ever it should come to pass,
That sheep of Christ might fall away,
My fickle, feeble soul, alas!
Would fall a thousand times a day."

If one dear saint of God had perished, so might all; if one of the covenant ones be lost, so may all be; and then there is no gospel promise true, but the Bible is a lie, and there is nothing in it worth my acceptance. I will be an infidel at once when I can believe that a saint of God can ever fall finally. If God hath loved me once, then He will love me for ever. God has a master-mind; He arranged everything in His gigantic intellect long before He did it; and once having settled it, He never alters it, "This shall be done," saith He, and the iron hand of destiny marks it down, and it is brought to pass. "This is My purpose," and it stands, nor can earth or hell alter it. "This is My decree," saith He, "promulgate it, ye holy angels; rend it down from the gate of Heaven, ye devils, if ye can; but ye cannot alter the decree, it shall stand for ever." God altereth not His plans; why should He? He is Almighty, and therefore can perform His pleasure. Why should He? He is the All-wise, and therefore cannot have planned wrongly. Why should He? He is the everlasting God, and therefore cannot die before His plan is accomplished. Why should He change? Ye worthless atoms of earth, ephemera of a day, ye creeping insects upon this bay-leaf of existence, ye may change your plans, but He shall never, never change His. Has He told me that His plan is to save me? If so, I am for ever safe.
"My name from the palms of His hands
Eternity will not erase;
Impress'd on His heart it remains,
In marks of indelible grace."

I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair. If I did not believe the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men the most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort. I could not say, whatever state of heart I came into, that I should be like a well-spring of water, whose stream fails not; I should rather have to take the comparison of an intermittent spring, that might stop on a sudden, or a reservoir, which I had no reason to expect would always be full. I believe that the happiest of Christians and the truest of Christians are those who never dare to doubt God, but who take His Word simply as it stands, and believe it, and ask no questions, just feeling assured that if God has said it, it will be so. I bear my willing testimony that I have no reason, nor even the shadow of a reason, to doubt my Lord, and I challenge Heaven, and earth, and hell, to bring any proof that God is untrue. From the depths of hell I call the fiends, and from this earth I call the tried and afflicted believers, and to Heaven I appeal, and challenge the long experience of the blood-washed host, and there is not to be found in the three realms a single person who can bear witness to one fact which can disprove the faithfulness of God, or weaken His claim to be trusted by His servants. There are many things that may or may not happen, but this I know shall happen-
"He shall present my soul,
Unblemish'd and complete,
Before the glory of His face,
With joys divinely great."

All the purposes of man have been defeated, but not the purposes of God. The promises of man may be broken-many of them are made to be broken-but the promises of God shall all be fulfilled. He is a promise-maker, but He never was a promise-breaker; He is a promise-keeping God, and every one of His people shall prove it to be so. This is my grateful, personal confidence, "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me"-unworthy me, lost and ruined me. He will yet save me; and-
"I, among the blood-wash'd throng,
Shall wave the palm, and wear the crown,
And shout loud victory."

I go to a land which the plough of earth hath never upturned, where it is greener than earth's best pastures, and richer than her most abundant harvests ever saw. I go to a building of more gorgeous architecture than man hath ever builded; it is not of mortal design; it is "a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens." All I shall know and enjoy in Heaven, will be given to me by the Lord, and I shall say, when at last I appear before Him-
"Grace all the work shall crown
Through everlasting days;
It lays in Heaven the topmost stone,
And well deserves the praise."

I know there are some who think it necessary to their system of theology to limit the merit of the blood of Jesus: if my theological system needed such a limitation, I would cast it to the winds. I cannot, I dare not allow the thought to find a lodging in my mind, it seems so near akin to blasphemy. In Christ's finished work I see an ocean of merit; my plummet finds no bottom, my eye discovers no shore. There must be sufficient efficacy in the blood of Christ, if God had so willed it, to have saved not only all in this world, but all in ten thousand worlds, had they transgressed their Maker's law. Once admit infinity into the matter, and limit is out of the question. Having a Divine Person for an offering, it is not consistent to conceive of limited value; bound and measure are terms inapplicable to the Divine sacrifice. The intent of the Divine purpose fixes the application of the infinite offering, but does not change it into a finite work. Think of the numbers upon whom God has bestowed His grace already. Think of the countless hosts in Heaven: if thou wert introduced there to-day, thou wouldst find it as easy to tell the stars, or the sands of the sea, as to count the multitudes that are before the throne even now. They have come from the East, and from the West, from the North, and from the South, and they are sitting down with Abraham, and with Isaac, and with Jacob in the Kingdom of God; and beside those in Heaven, think of the saved ones on earth. Blessed be God, His elect on earth are to be counted by millions, I believe, and the days are coming, brighter days than these, when there shall be multitudes upon multitudes brought to know the Saviour, and to rejoice in Him. The Father's love is not for a few only, but for an exceeding great company. "A great multitude, which no man could number," will be found in Heaven. A man can reckon up to very high figures; set to work your Newtons, your mightiest calculators, and they can count great numbers, but God and God alone can tell the multitude of His redeemed. I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the pre-eminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number. I rejoice to know that the souls of all infants, as soon as they die, speed their way to Paradise. Think what a multitude there is of them! Then there are already in Heaven unnumbered myriads of the spirits of just men made perfect-the redeemed of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues up till now; and there are better times coming, when the religion of Christ shall be universal; when-
"He shall reign from pole to pole,
With illimitable sway;"

when whole kingdoms shall bow down before Him, and nations shall be born in a day, and in the thousand years of the great millennial state there will be enough saved to make up all the deficiencies of the thousands of years that have gone before. Christ shall be Master everywhere, and His praise shall be sounded in every land. Christ shall have the pre-eminence at last; His train shall be far larger than that which shall attend the chariot of the grim monarch of hell.
Some persons love the doctrine of universal atonement because they say, "It is so beautiful. It is a lovely idea that Christ should have died for all men; it commends itself," they say, "to the instincts of humanity; there is something in it full of joy and beauty." I admit there is, but beauty may be often associated with falsehood. There is much which I might admire in the theory of universal redemption, but I will just show what the supposition necessarily involves. If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins. Once again, if it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a conception a thousand times more repulsive than any of those consequences which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of special and particular redemption. To think that my Saviour died for men who were or are in hell, seems a supposition too horrible for me to entertain. To imagine for a moment that He was the Substitute for all the sons of men, and that God, having first punished the Substitute, afterwards punished the sinners themselves, seems to conflict with all my ideas of Divine justice. That Christ should offer an atonement and satisfaction for the sins of all men, and that afterwards some of those very men should be punished for the sins for which Christ had already atoned, appears to me to be the most monstrous iniquity that could ever have been imputed to Saturn, to Janus, to the goddess of the Thugs, or to the most diabolical heathen deities. God forbid that we should ever think thus of Jehovah, the just and wise and good!
There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrines of grace than I do, and if any man asks me whether I am ashamed to be called a Calvinist, I answer-I wish to be called nothing but a Christian; but if you ask me, do I hold the doctrinal views which were held by John Calvin, I reply, I do in the main hold them, and rejoice to avow it. But far be it from me even to imagine that Zion contains none but Calvinistic Christians within her walls, or that there are none saved who do not hold our views. Most atrocious things have been spoken about the character and spiritual condition of John Wesley, the modern prince of Arminians. I can only say concerning him that, while I detest many of the doctrines which he preached, yet for the man himself I have a reverence second to no Wesleyan; and if there were wanted two apostles to be added to the number of the twelve, I do not believe that there could be found two men more fit to be so added than George Whitefield and John Wesley. The character of John Wesley stands beyond all imputation for self-sacrifice, zeal, holiness, and communion with God; he lived far above the ordinary level of common Christians, and was one "of whom the world was not worthy." I believe there are multitudes of men who cannot see these truths, or, at least, cannot see them in the way in which we put them, who nevertheless have received Christ as their Saviour, and are as dear to the heart of the God of grace as the soundest Calvinist in or out of Heaven.
I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. Now, if I were to declare that man was so free to act that there was no control of God over his actions, I should be driven very near to atheism; and if, on the other hand, I should declare that God so over-rules all things that man is not free enough to be responsible, I should be driven at once into Antinomianism or fatalism. That God predestines, and yet that man is responsible, are two facts that few can see clearly. They are believed to be inconsistent and contradictory to each other. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
It is often said that the doctrines we believe have a tendency to lead us to sin. I have heard it asserted most positively, that those high doctrines which we love, and which we find in the Scriptures, are licentious ones. I do not know who will have the hardihood to make that assertion, when they consider that the holiest of men have been believers in them. I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the system of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as the orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles. It is that vein of free-grace, running through the sermonizing of Baptists, which has saved us as a denomination. Were it not for that, we should not stand where we are today. We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, "Where will you find holier and better men in the world?" No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it "a licentious doctrine" did not know anything at all about it. Poor ignorant things, they little knew that their own vile stuff was the most licentious doctrine under Heaven. If they knew the grace of God in truth, they would soon see that there was no preservative from lying like a knowledge that we are elect of God from the foundation of the world. There is nothing like a belief in my eternal perseverance, and the immutability of my Father's affection, which can keep me near to Him from a motive of simple gratitude. Nothing makes a man so virtuous as belief of the truth. A lying doctrine will soon beget a lying practice. A man cannot have an erroneous belief without by-and-by having an erroneous life. I believe the one thing naturally begets the other. Of all men, those have the most disinterested piety, the sublimest reverence, the most ardent devotion, who believe that they are saved by grace, without works, through faith, and that not of themselves, it is the gift of God. Christians should take heed, and see that it always is so, lest by any means Christ should be crucified afresh, and put to an open shame.

 

Steaver,

Regarding Romans 6 & Romans 11, I understand what you are arguing. Eternal life is a gift. The gifts of God are irrevocable.

I guess my perplexity comes in that you take the second idea from a passage that makes my point.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

While the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, they are conditioned upon our continued faithfulness, not a singular act of faith. Thus, those Israelites who rejected faith in Jesus were broken off. Paul says, however, that they could be grafted in again “if they do not continue in their unbelief.” We who are believers, however, stand by our faith. Yet we are to fear. You must “continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

It appears that you have illustrated the danger of finding a proof text by ignoring the context. In fact, you have found a proof text in a passage making the opposite point. Curious.

Blessings,

Bob

 

This statement is an oxymoron. "Irrevocable" means " cannot be recalled or undone ". Niether party has control over this. It is a done deal, cannot change. Just like your birth by water cannot be recalled or undone, niether can your spiritual birth (receiving the gift of eternal life) be recalled or undone. There is no " condition " upon anything. That is why it is called " irrevocable ".

Not at all. This passage is dealing with “unbelief”. There are always those in every following who have not been “born again”. The difference is between appearing to believe, even saying you believe (James 2:14), and having true “born again” belief!

Here is an example, (John 8:31-59)

31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him , If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32. And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33. They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
35. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37. I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38. I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39. They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
45. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
46. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
47. He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
48. Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
49. Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
50. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
51. Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52. Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54. Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55. Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56. Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58. Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59. Then took they up stones to cast at him : but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Verse 31 states that Jesus is speaking to “those Jews which believed on Him”. Jesus said “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free”. At this point in the hearing, the Holy Spirit rebirth Jesus spoke of to come, had not yet been given. There was no sealing of the Holy Spirit, no giving of the Living Water. “Believers” would come and go, they needed “to continue in Jesus’ word”. By the time we get to verse 59 they are picking up stones to kill Him. These so called “believers” proved to be "false" believers. They would come and go. Later, when God begun to perform “rebirths”, there would no longer be this coming and going among true believers (born again). Those who truly accepted the gospel would ask for the Holy Spirit and receive an everlasting covenant with God (born again). Secured by Jesus Christ alone, forever. There will always be those so called “believers” in every church gathering who have not continue in Jesus’ word by becoming “born again” and could walk away remaining lost, cut off, even though they appeared to have “believed”.

We now know and understand, because we have the complete New Testament, that once one is “born again” they are sealed for eternity, they have been given eternal life, living water, which can never end and wells up into everlasting life. Once one studies and understands this miracle transformation, performed solely by the will of God, one can then undertake interpreting these seemingly difficult passages of scripture that tends to shake a person’s faith.

Have you been given this water Jesus spoke of Bob? “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life .” (John 4:14)

God Bless!

 

It double posted. I just erased one.

God Bless!

 

Good stuff Gerhard.

The only thing Spurgeon missed is our ability to accept or reject all that God has offered. God did not create puppets!

God Bless!