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Are the Church and the Kingdom the Same?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Tom Butler, Apr 13, 2006.

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  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I see you live in Ky, good thing you are out west for if you advocated water baptism as the door to the church around the Baptist here in the eastern part of Ky you would be eaten alive. Of course it would be accepted in the "church of Christ".

    Matthew, chapter 3
    "11": I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

    Acts, chapter 10
    "47": Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


    You don't believe the Holy Ghost baptism is still happening today?

    [ April 14, 2006, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
    #41 Brother Bob, Apr 14, 2006
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I believe that Jesus and The Holy Ghost are the door to the Church.

    John, chapter 10
    "9": I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
     
    #42 Brother Bob, Apr 14, 2006
  3. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Kingdom of heaven, is only mentioned in Matt, it is the "literal place" from which "God the Father" rules.


    Kingdom of God, is "Spiritual" and "any/every place" God rules, such as in the hearts of believers.
     
    #43 Me4Him, Apr 15, 2006
  4. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Brother Bob, I do believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost. It occurs at our salvation. Can't remember who said this--when God saves us,we get all of the Holy Spirit we're ever going to get. The problem is how much of us the Holy Spirit gets. Another way I heard it put is, the Holy Spirit is resident within us, but is He president?

    In one of your posts, you referenced John 10:9 "I am the door.." to support your statement that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are the door to the church. I believe they are the door to the kingdom.

    On the day of Pentecost, all those who were saved received water baptism and were added to the church at Jerusalem(Acts 2:41). A natural progression, seems to me. Salvation, water baptism, church membership.

    Brother Bob, I'm learning a lot. Your comment that the views I've expressed would get me eaten alive in your part of Kentucky were a revelation. In my part of Kentucky, the far west, and in West Tennessee, where I grew up, these views were commonly held among Baptists without much debate.
     
    #44 Tom Butler, Apr 15, 2006
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Tom Butler;
    I was trying to make a joke but seems to have failed. We believe the Church is the Kingdom. We believe part of it is here and part is already gone to Heaven waiting upon the ressurection and the redemption of the body. We only believe in one Kingdom. We also believe you have to be baptized in the water to get membership in the church membership but that to be a member of the One and True Church it takes the Holy Ghost Baptism. (difference in One and True Church and church of brick and mortar) We call it going in the water a dry sinner and coming out a wet one if you don't already have Christ and have received the Holy Ghost.



    I believe everything you say in the quote except I would put Holy Ghost baptism and Salvation as one then water and church membership here in the brick and mortar church but already a part of the One and True Church and if you die before receiving the water baptism (which I have had many to do) you still are saved and Heaven is your home. It is just there has always been a struggle between Church of Christ and Baptist about water salvation and if you made that statement they would think you meant salvation was in the water to which you have made it clear you don't.

    Sounds like you probably believe the same or close to it. Sorry if the joke was off color.
     
    #45 Brother Bob, Apr 15, 2006
  6. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Am I the only one who did not catch this? What is this about? </font>[/QUOTE]I was going to post on this but was waiting until I read the end of the posts. But, I'm just too anxious...

    Entrance to the church is NOT water baptism, but Spirit baptism.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 - For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit.
     
    #46 Calvibaptist, Apr 15, 2006
  7. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist New Member

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    Kingdom of heaven and kingdom of God are the same.

    Mat 4:12 Now when he heard that John was delivered up, he withdrew into Galilee;
    17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 18 And walking by the sea of Galilee, he saw two brethren, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishers.

    Mark 1:14 - Now after John was delivered up, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, 15 and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe in the gospel. 16 And passing along by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew the brother of Simon casting a net in the sea; for they were fishers.

    Same event. Two different gospels. Different phrase used in each. Kingdom of heaven and Kingdom of God are the same.
     
    #47 Calvibaptist, Apr 15, 2006
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Calvibaptist;
    We meet again, I think if you read my last post you will see that I said exactly that. I will let Tom speak for himself but think he meant the brick and mortar church because he stated that Salvation came first and if you have Salvation you are in the One and True Church.

    BBob
     
    #48 Brother Bob, Apr 15, 2006
  9. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Brother Bob, I was not offended in any way by your reference to being "eaten alive." I knew exactly what you were trying to say. I have used that expression myself to say the same thing. No apology necessary.

    I think we essentially are in agreement. When you refer to Holy Ghost Baptism, I assume that we are both talking about the Holy Ghost in-dwelling that comes to us in salvation, not the Pentecostal understanding of Holy Ghost baptism.

    The one thing we see differently is your belief that the church and the kingdom are the same, and my belief that they are not. And, my contention that the "universal church" has no reason for existence. It preaches no gospel, it witnesses to no lost person, it sends no missionaries. It has no purpose that I can see. The commission given by the Lord Jesus has never been carried out by some nebulous "universal church," but by visible, committed congregations of believers.

    Other than that, we're pretty much on the same wavelength.
     
    #49 Tom Butler, Apr 15, 2006
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Tom Butler:
    Holy Ghost Baptism, I am referring to what John the Baptist said that Jesus was going to do when He came. I don't believe in rambling on with unknown sound nor rolling around on the floor, if that is what you mean. What you call universal church I don't know, but I believe there is nothing unclean in the True Church that God adds to daily. I do believe there are those who are unsaved in the visible, brick and mortar church who came in unawares to seek out our liberty. I believe the True Church is within you and is led and kept by the Spirit of God. I believe when the Scripture says you died dead to love of sin and made alive in Christ Jesus that that is the One and Only True Church which is all over the earth and takes in all that has been born again. If it was the visible part then man could destroy God's church but I don't think man or the devil will ever destroy the church.
    Matter-of-fact, some boys tore out some of our basement vents lately to our church. ;)

    [ April 15, 2006, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
    #50 Brother Bob, Apr 15, 2006
  11. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Thanks for your clarification, Brother Bob. What I call the universal church and what you call the True Church are probably the same thing.

    I think we'd also agree that those unsaved in the local congregations are technically not members. They were never saved, their baptism just got them wet and is null. And sooner or later, unsaved people make trouble for the congregation.

    Like tearing out basement vents.
     
    #51 Tom Butler, Apr 16, 2006
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