Obedience

Well lets start with baptism. You quoted Mark 16:16, good verse. Guess what it says, "He that BELIEVEST". Remember what I said about the words believe and repent. The emphasis is on believe. Here in this case also the emphasis is on believe. The verse mentions baptism, but we're not "damned" because of not being baptised, we're damned for our unbelief. "He that BELIEVEST not shall be damned." No mention of not being baptized.

Now let's go on to circumcism. What does circumcism represent? It is an outward sign of an inward change. It means that the Jewish person accepted that they were set apart from the world for God's purposes. That is exactly what baptism means for the Christian believer. It is done after salvation, not as a part of it. Just as Abraham was circumcised AFTER he agreed to the covenant with God, we are baptized AFTER we agree to accept the gift of salvation. It is us poor humans that need outward signs, not God who can see our inmost heart and thoughts.

Now lets deal with the boasting issue. A person can boast about anything at all but the proof is in the pudding as the saying goes. Does your belief in Christ count toward earning your salvation? Can salvation be earned? That is the difference between believing and obedience. You can't earn salvation if it is a gift. In other words, there is no work involved in the getting of a gift. If I hand you a twenty dollar bill and you accept it, have you done any real work to earn that bill? Not hardly.

Christ said on the cross, "It is finished". What did he mean? My belief is that he meant that all the work for our salvation was done. He didn't come back after His resurection and say, now if you want this thing called salvation the you have to earn it! It was done already. All that was needed is for us to accept.

Some signs of our acceptance include baptism(the first step), and bearing fruit(The fruit of the Spirit are love, joy, peace...Gal 5:22). Obedience to Christ's commands brings about the bearing of fruit. Obedience however is not a fruit itself. And thus we end up back at the point where we started.

LOL, good thing you weren't in a hurry for my reply. I've been interupted 12 dozen times while I tried to reply.

 

Wow, it's been a long time since I have posted or even been here! How is that for wierd! Well, hello to you too!

Salvation is by grace through faith alone.

We must obey his command in order to receive that salvation, not in order to keep it. What is it we must obey?

I guarantee you, that if you don't follow his command to believe in the name of His son Jesus Christ you will NOT be saved!

~Lorelei

 

Isn't salvation and obedience like hand and glove.....they just go together. Kinda like you wear gloves to protect you hands......you get obedient when you get saved? Through out the Old Testament every time Israel wasn't obedient look what happened to them. I think when your saved you are saved but being obedient makes the journey eaiser. (Do ya know what I mean?)

 

Obedience is for rewards at the Judgement Seat of Christ.
Belief is for salvation in eternity.
When one confuses the two, they get into all kinds of mixed up doctrine.
I'll get into this more later. I have homework to do.
COLLEGE ALGEBRA! ARGH!
In HIS service;
Jim

 

Actually, it's when one separates the two that one gets into "mixed-up doctrine". One is not having faith (trust) in Christ when one is not obeying Him. Faith without works is dead, and a dead "faith" does not save. Faith is not just a one-time, once-for-all decision, but rather a life of obedience, taking up our cross and following Him, and continual repentence when we stumble. Jesus Christ will not ultimately be one's Savior if He is not that person's Lord.

Hear the words of Christ:
"Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation". (John 5:28-29) So you see, "doing good" is not optional and is not merely for "rewards" in heaven.

 

Hi Oneness, long time no see (so-to-speak) Hi Lorelie, your back too I see. Hope you are both well.

Couple things. For obedience to have a role in salvation it would have to be PERFECT Obedience. Only perfection has a place with a Holy God. Now, as for me, my obedience is not perfect. Oneness, perhaps you can obey God to a perfect level, I can not and therefore for me obedience can not play a role in my salvation. Only a perfect sacrifice can save this imperfect man. Jesus provided the perfection for me because He knew I could not do it for myself. Knowing that I needed His perfection to be saved it is hard to see that he would require me to perfectly obey to remain saved. Again, to have a role in salvation, obtaining or retaining, obedience would have to be perfect on my part. So look at your Hebrews verse below with a couple surrounding verses. What we see is that Jesus grew into obedience, He, Jesus learned obedience? - wow wild huh? He, Jesus perfected obedience because NNE on earth could be perfectly obedient to a Holy God. He became OUR obedience by His perfect obedience. One who trusts Christ's death and resurrection for his salvation wears the obedience of Christ like a robe. We, believers, that is, are those that "obey" in this sense. Read Lorelie's post with mine for a complete picture.

I wrote this on the fly so I may need to further explain myself tomorrow as sometimes what's in my mind and heart gets lost on the way to my hands.

Hebrews 5: (NASB)

7In the days of His flesh, (S)He offered up both prayers and supplications with (T)loud crying and tears to the One (U)able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His (V)piety.

8Although He was (W)a Son, He learned (X)obedience from the things which He suffered.

9And having been made (Y)perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

10being designated by God as (Z)a high priest according to (AA)the order of Melchizedek.

In Christ,
Brian

 

DT;
Then by default you are espousing works = salvation.
Hear the words of Paul;
Eph 2:7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Ro 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

There is a blatant contradiction here. On the one hand Jesus says, Those who have done good or bad. Doing = works.
Paul says it is NOT of works. One or the other is true or else there is something else in view. You cannot have both works and grace in your view of salvation. Scripture is clear. Salvation is NOT of works. Therefore Jesus is talking about something other than salvation in the passage you quote.

The Gospel is a DONE deal. You cannot add to it. If you add anything to it, including obedience, you have effectively said the Cross was insufficient to secure salvation for us and WE must DO something to help Jesus save us!

That concept is utter nonsense.

No sir. Obedience to obtain salvation is not what Jesus is teaching. He is teaching rewards. Look here;
Mt 25:21
His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Are you a ruler now? Will you be a ruler in heaven? No! But you CAN be in the coming Millenial Kingdom, based on your obedience now!

You don't obey a King to become his subject, you obey BECAUSE you are a subject of the King.

That should be pretty simple, but unfortunately many have missed it. Some would say you don't HAVE to obey at all, others would say you must obey to become, but the truth is that you must obey to be rewarded for faithfulness. All that is necessary to be adopted by the King is to just believe, but and if you believe, then you must obey Him as King, and He will THEN reward that faithfulness.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Hear some more words of Paul:
"[God] who 'will render to each one according to his deeds'"(Romans 2:6)
Is Paul talking merely about "rewards" here? Let's see...

"eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek." (Romans 2:7-10)
So in other words it's "eternal life" (aka "salvation) that is rendered to those who patiently continue to do good.

Here's another:
"Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God; on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off" Romans 11:22

Not really. You only think it's a contradiction because you take certain statements of Paul out of context, and ignore what else he said and what the other writers of Scipture and Christ Himself said. Reading the book of Romans in context shows that Paul distinguishes grace with works of the Law done to somehow merit salvation (ie to obligate God to give us eternal life), not with the works of obedience that are enabled by grace and that demonstrate our faith. I just showed you a passage in Romans where God gives those who patiently continue to do works of obedience eternal life (and those who do not obey, "indignation, anguish", etc)

Yes

It is not of works, as they are not the basis for our salvation since we can't merit our salvation. The chasm is to wide to cross because we have sinned and are spiritually dead apart from God's grace. However, Eternal life is clearly given to those who continue to "work what is good" in Romans 2:5-10 since grace enables us to obey Him which demonstrates our faith.

As Paul says in Galatians 5:6: "For in Christ neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." Paul, like James, preaches a "working faith", not a dead "faith". And notice that Paul mentions that faith works through love. Love involves action, not mere sentiment. Christ said: "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And He who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him" (John 14:21) and "if anyone loves Me, he will keep my word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me, does not keep My words" (John 14:23-24)

But we're not saved without works, as Scripture is equally clear. Faith without works is dead, my friend, and a dead "faith" doesn't save.

Actually, the passage I quoted couldn't be any more clear. Christ is talking about salvation (for those who do good) and damnation (for those who don't)

That's a red herring. Obedience isn't "adding to" the Gospel, it's at the very heart of the Gospel. Christ said: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father in heaven"(Matt 7:21).

He also said: "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny Himself, take up his cross, and follow Me." (Luke 6:23)

He also said: "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire".

Following Christ, doing His will, taking up ones cross, and abiding in Him all indicate our response to Christ if we want to have Eternal life, for Eternal life is in Him.

Only to those who subscribe to easy-believism.

And the unfaithful servant devoid of works was cast out of the kingdom into outer darkness. (Matt 25:30) Also notice that those devoid of works in Matthew 25:41-46 were not merely deprived of "rewards", but were sent away into everlasting punishment (v.46).

Besides we don't do works to obtain salvation as if we can by our feeble efforts merit salvtion, we do works to demonstrate our love and because we are faithful. Faith is proved by being faithful.

However, in Luke 19:12-27, certain of the king's subjects ("citizens" in the NKJV) didn't want Him to reign over Him and He had them slain. In Luke 12:42-48, the master appointed his evil servant a portion with the unbelievers after being "cut in two". Such is the fate of unrepentent rebellious Christians--not a simple "loss of rewards".

There's a lot more but I'll end by directing you to 2 Peter 1:5-11. There the apostle lists several things (virtue, knowledge, self-control, perserverence, godliness, kindness, and love) needed in addition to faith to "make our election sure" and to have an "entrance supplied into the everlasting kingdom of God".

 

Hi all. Just a couple more points. Who are "works" done for? Who do they "show" something to? Our works could never prove to God what is in our heart. God sees the heart directly. We cannot "prove" anything to God for he already knows everything. When a person is hurt and I help them, God is not in Heaven watching to see what I will do, He already knows. I cannot get salvation or keep salvation by doing things that God already knew I would do. Take time to ponder that logic because it is very important. Ask yourself this: Why would he save me in the first place if He knew that by my works I would later fail? (that is for the one who's works fall short of God's perfection).

Also, think on this: How much "works" are needed to maintain salvation?

and: What percentage of obedience is enough for me to get saved? and what percentage to keep me saved? (Is 30% obedience enough?, 50%? - surely 80% would do the trick? right?)

I say this to keep some of you from a slippery slope that leads to stress and guilt.

I hope this post generates more response then my last post, which you all avoided like the plague.

In Christ,
Brian

 

ONENESS,

Congratulations on becoming a daddy! It is indeed an awesome thing to become a parent! I do wish you the best with your new little one. I am glad to see life is treating you well.

Brian,

It is nice to see you as well. Things are going quite well with us thank you, and I pray that things are good with you too.

My little one is now three and my middle one is graduating in May and leaving for the Army in June! My daughter, has been quite healthy and doing awesome these days! Anyway...I don't want to take up the thread with personal stuff, but did want to say hello to those whom I have missed. I will TRY to stay around for awhile, but I do not have the amount of time I used to have to spend on here anymore!

God Bless

~Lorelei

Post on content to follow

 

I think we need to back up and ask "Obey what?"

"Is Salvation dependent on obedience?"
Obedience to what?

The problem is we are automatically assuming that obedience is always in reference to "the law" or certain "commands". In order to see what we have to obey, we must look at the context.

Let us first define the words in question.

Obedience means we are in compliance with or in submission to the subject of the context. However, obedience does not always mean an action or "work" of some kind.

For instance, if the passage says you "obeyed" the truth of the gospel, it means you were obedient by confessing the Lord Jesus Christ. This does NOT imply that you did any work or any "acts" to possess that salvation, simply that you believed as is what the gospel says we must do.

When we think we must be saved by works and then read this passage we assume it means we must obey the law. However, the Old Testament proved to us that no man can obey the law and therefore God did away with the law and had His Son come and obey the law for us and by fulfilling the law He became our perfect sacrifice. We can NOT obey the "law" to become saved and there are no other commands that we must do to be saved except to "believe."

The word "obey" does not automatically imply a work or an act.

Next we have the word "repent

Repentance means to change your mind about something and like obedience it means to change you mind about the subject of the context of the passage and does NOT mean that we are changing our mind about enough sins to become "obedient" to a law it is impossible for us to keep.

Repentance means to change our mind and as I showed in 1 John, the command the Lord gave us was to believe in Jesus Christ. If we do not change our mind about ourself and realize we are sinners and if we do not change our minds about Christ and admit HE alone is the only sacrifice for our sins and recognize that He IS the Son of God, we will NOT be saved.

So, like the word obey, repent does not always require a specific work or act, rather it merely means to change your mind about something. In the context of Acts 2:38 Israel NEEDED to change their minds about Christ. They totally rejected Him as their savior! They had CRUCIFIED Him!

If they didn't change their minds and admit that He was thier Savior, they would not be saved.

Repentance does not mean you do some act or work of obedience to some law or command. And obedience is not always referring to obeying any one certain law or command. We must look at the context.

If we are to "obey" the gospel that means we must "believe" on the Lord Jesus Christ. Believing is "obeying" in that context. No work or act is required for us to obey this command, only a "changing of our mind" (repent) of what we formally believed (that we did not need or want Christ).

So what is it you are asking? Must we "Obey what" to be saved?

~Lorelei

 

For God and for ourselves. Both because when we do things for God's glory we benefit. We cannot do anything that benefits God, but we were made to do good works!

I'm sure that most of us know Ephesians 2:8,9 ~ For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. But don't stop there! Verse 10 is also important and part of the same thought ~ For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We do good works for God but we are the ones who benefit! Isn't God great!!

 

Nevertheless, We do "works" unto God for His glory to be seen by others. Our works are to show others our Love for God and draw them to God.

"Let your light so shine before others that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven" (Not direct verse as I did not have time to find it - sorry)

In Christ,
Brian

 

No debate on my first post?? Does that mean you all agree??

Brian

 

Yes we must! Now, how do you define the gospel? Paul said the gospel HE preached was that Jesus died, was buried and raised again (1 Cor 15). Paul said if we believed we would be saved (Acts 16:31) and Paul said that he came to preach the gospel, not baptize, showing that baptism is not part of the gospel (1 Cor 1:17).

So as I Have already stated, we must obey the gospel and that simply means we must believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

That is the command we must obey. That is all we must do!

What causes the change? No man can change his heart enough to have God accept Him. We change our mind and accept Christ and then HE changes our heart. The fruits of repentance, the 'changed life' comes from the Spirit of God, not from ourself.

Repentance is NOT a lifestyle change. It is what leads us to a lifestyle change. Our lives change when the Spirit of God indwells us. We then become new creatures in Christ and only when we walk in the Spirit will our life reflect that we have repented. It is NOT reflecting what WE have done by repenting but rather what the Spirit is doing THROUGH us because we repented and turned to Him.

You have to IN Christ to be a new creation! You can't get rid of the old UNTIL the new comes!

There are no steps to salvation. Man can do nothing save believe and allow God to do the rest.

~Lorelei

 

That means there is a condition to salvation, we have to help out or we can't be saved, Jesus can't do it all on His own. That makes you resposnable for your salvation.

 

So if I get saved, but don't obey, I was never saved?

Gee, God is really wishy-washy, isn't He?

... see it yet? </font>[/QUOTE]Obedience comes after salvation. And no if we don't SEE someone doing what we think they should to be obedient it does not mean they are not saved.
Your sarcasm is not appreciated. Be an adult.