Obedience

Actually, Scripture is full of conditional statements regarding salvation with plenty of "ifs". If I get a chance tonight I'll list several. (In fact, I've already listed some in a previous post on page 2 of this thread)</font>[/QUOTE]So as promised here's a few references to conditional salvation:

Romans 2:5-10--eternal life is conditional on one's patient continuance in doing good.

John 15:1-6--IF one doesn't abide in Christ, he's cast off as a branch and burned.(v.6)

Romans 11:20-22--remaining in Christ is conditioned on continuing belief and continuing in His goodness. IF one does not continue, he is cut off.

Those passages I've mentioned already. Now here are some more...

Romans 8:12-13--"Therefore, brethren*, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For IF you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."
(*Paul's addressing fellow Christians)

1 Cor 15:1-2--"Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand[present tense], by which you are also saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain."

Colossians 1:21-23--"And you, who were once alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy and blameless and above reproach in His sight--IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel you heard"

Hebrews 3:6--"but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing if the hope firm to the end."

Hebrews 3:14--"For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end.

Hebrews 10:26--"For IF we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."

2 Peter 2:20--"For IF, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning."

1 John 1:9--"IF we [Christians] confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (ie, forgiveness is conditional on confession)

1 John 2:3-4--"Now by this we know that we know Him, IF we keep His commandments [plural]. He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments [plural], is a liar, and the truth is not in Him."
(so we have to obey his commandments (plural) not just the one command to "accept Christ")

There's plenty more where that came from. I didn't really begin to discuss the many conditional statements of Christ Himself. In closing I'll end with this word from Peter:

"But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perserverance, to perserverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For IF these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed form his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for IF you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." --2 Peter 1:5-11

(so not only must we be diligent to add certain things to our faith, we must do those things in order that we ensure our election and have an entrance into God's kingdom!)

(Selah)

 

Then why do you believe you can earn your salvation by being baptized. Baptism is a work.
DHK

 

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. (Acts 16:31)
To believe or have faith is not a work, and therefore does not fall in the category of "earning" one's salvation. You have a wrong concept of salvation. If you continue to believe as you do, you will miss the boat when Christ comes for his own.
DHK

 

No, we do not know that. We agree that the gospel is the death burial and ressurection of Christ because The Bible says so. The Bible does NOT say there is more to salvation than that.

No, not every Word applies to how to receive salvation. They are "good news" but not the good news that saved. Sometimes Christ said what to do to be saved, sometimes he said what the Jews should do to receive their kingdom, sometimes he said what people should do during the tribulation, sometimes he said what we should do AFTER we were saved. Not every Word he spoke was a requirement for salvation.

No, a person can not be saved and never change, but the change comes from the Spirit, not the flesh. Those who say they are saved and never change were not really saved.

Hebrews tells us this!

Those who never show any fruits or desire to please the Lord are those who have unbelieving hearts, those who never combined what they heard with faith. They were never really saved. That is why the Bible admonishes you to "test yourself" and make sure you are saved if you are acting in rebellion of the God you claim to serve. Note, it says "test yourself" not repent and get saved again!

You can't believe in a Jesus who is merely a "Get out of hell free card" and be saved. To say a prayer and ask for salvation from sin you don't really believe is worthy of being punishable by death then you aren't really believing what Jesus said about that sin. If you prefer that sin to pleasing Jesus than you merely said a prayer to "escape from hell" but don't really believe what Jesus said about sin or Himself! That is NOT salvation!

A person must believe they are sinners and realize that sin requires the penalty of death and only Jesus can save you from that. They have to accept that, not merely mouth a belief. Believing in THAT Jesus will save you and if you believe in THAT Jesus, you will have His Spirit indwell you and when you walk in the Spirit you will be begin to be able to walk as He walked. Paul warns us that there are "other gospels" that do not save.

What you can not do is continue to try to "live holy" in the flesh. The Bible is clear, once we are saved we are FREE! There is no law we are to be under, however, because we have the Spirit of Christ we will be a new creation and will desire to let Christ lead us. We will still struggle with the flesh, as did Paul, but we will still be saved.

Salvation is ETERNAL, hence the name "eternal life." After we are saved, we begin to learn how to walk in the Spirit and we begin to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. We will never reflect the perfect holiness that Christ purchased for us with his blood, because until we die, we will be in these old bodies and will still have both the flesh and the Spirit battling within us. Those who are truly saved WILL desire to walk in the Spirit and have some fruit. However, we are never expected to BE perfect in order to get to heaven, Christ's blood took care of that. Christ said it himself, It is finished.

~Lorelei

 

There was more I wanted to say but time is short!

I will be away for much of the weekend, but will be back Monday for certain. Just and FYI in case you have any more comments. I don't want you to think I have left again!

ONENESS,

I also might start another thread on another subject at that time. It is a different topic that I have wanted to hear your comments on.

Look forward to conversing more.

~Lorelei

 

Ok sorry, I agreed with what Lorelie said. The Gospel is the the death, burial, and resurrection.

Yes, John 3:5. We must be born of the water and the spirit to enter the kingdom of God.

We must believe in Jesus Christ. John 3:16

We must believe and be baptized. Mark 16:16

We must believe in Jesus as the Scripture says. John 7:37-38.

Abide in Jesus. John 15

And there's more of course.

Thanks for asking. </font>[/QUOTE]Nice little quotes; but very evasive. It's like saying: If you believe the Bible, you can be saved. That's a given! Trouble is the J.W.'s, Mormons, and even the Muslims say that they believe the Bible. Catholics also say that they need to be born again. Is your belief any different than theirs. If not, why not join them? What does it mean to abide in Christ. Didn't William Branham teach that too? Just another cult leader. Unless you define what you say, it has no meaning. Hindus believe in a new birth too, but obviously it is defined a bit differently than how the Bible defines it, and I dare say that you don't have a Biblical definition of what it means to be born again.

You call faith or believing a work. The Bible doesn't. Read Romans chapter 4 and you will see that I have the correct view. Abraham was not justified by works, but by faith (which was not a work).

I ask you again: Explain the way of salvation to us, without using the Book of Acts. Or is it "another" gospel that you believe in?
DHK

 

Sure we do. But unlike you we don't believe that Jesus IS that Father. That is heresy. Unlike you we don't deny the trinity. Every other Bible believing Christian does believe in the trinity, and does believe that Christ is a separate person from the Father.

The Catholic doctrine of being born again, which you say is correct, is infant baptism. Is this your belief? If it is then the other Catholic doctrines shouldn't bother you.

I like the first part of your quote where you say:

Now that is profound. Abiding in Christ is whatever else you can think of. I can think of a lot of things, but it wouldn't be abiding in Christ.
Notice that your defintion differs vastly from Strong's. He doesn't mention anything about obedience or prayer or any of the things that you mentioned.

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he is a lost sinner the day he was born, condemned to Hell, in need of a Saviour. He was born with a sin nature. You don't have to teach him to lie and sin. You have to teach him to tell the truth and do right. He does things contrary to God's laws naturally because he has inherited the sin nature of Adam. In no way is he innocent and pure. He is a liar, and he was born that way.

Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but what you expressed concerning your son, is what the Catholics believe concerning Mary, and one of the reasons given to worship her--the immaculate conception--born without sin. No child is born without sin, not yours, not Mary, not any child.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

David was referring to the fact that he was born with a sin nature. He had the propensity to sin from the day that he was born. That was passed down to him from Adam.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--We are not born bad off; we are born sinners.

That is because he was born a sinner. He never had an innocent heart in the first place. He stands guilty and condemned before God. He needs a Saviour because his spirit is dead and lifeless (Eph.2:1) He is born a child of the devil (John 8:44), and thus needs to be born into the family of God (John 1:12,13).

Demonstrate through Scripture the baptism of Nicodemus. Water is mentioned, but baptism is not. You can read the entire chapte of John 3, and you won't find even one reference to baptism. To insert your pre-conceived idea of baptism into John 3:5 is your eisigesis, and wrongly dividing the word of truth. That is not what Christ had in mind. Water can mean many things. But it certainly doesn't mean baptism in this verse. Jeremiah makes a mockery of your belief:

Jeremiah 2:22 For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
--Go ahead baptize, get wet, scrub and wash; use much soap while your at it; add in some lye and make it very intense--but know and understand that water does not wash away sin!! That is plain superstition.

[QUOTE}No I dont, I just believe everyone else puts certain things under the catagory of works that don't belong under that catagory at all.[/QUOTE]
Oh, you mean like baptism? The work of baptism? What else would you call it if it wasn't a work? Who does it? Man does it. It is very tangible. Man puts a person under the water and man brings the man the person up out of the water. It is not God that does the baptizing; it is man. This is man's work; not God's. It is a work of man--a work that follows after salvation, for salvation is not of works.

And you do that quite conveniently so, only to justify your own heretical position which you know is not true. Water doesn't save. Ask Jeremiah.

And that is all there is to being saved. That is another gospel, a false gospel. Baptism has nothing to do with salvation. That point is wrong in itself. Works have nothing to do with salvation. That again makes your message heretical.
The gospel is given very simply in 1Cor. 15:3,4. Do you believe that simple message. Lorelei defined the gospel for you. It was very simple. All that a person must do is believe the gospel to be saved--believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and rose again for them. Can you put your faith in atoning sacrifice of the work of Christ and nothing else?
DHK

[ March 01, 2005, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

There have been many non-Christian beliefs on the board lately ...

Oneness do you believe in the 3 Persons of God revealed in His Word?

 

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he is a lost sinner the day he was born, condemned to Hell, in need of a Saviour. He was born with a sin nature. You don't have to teach him to lie and sin. You have to teach him to tell the truth and do right. He does things contrary to God's laws naturally because he has inherited the sin nature of Adam. In no way is he innocent and pure. He is a liar, and he was born that way.

DHK [/QUOTE]

DHK, this is a low blow! I didn't think that even you could stoop so low and be so cruel. What kind of a man are you anyway?

This baby is approximately 4 months old and you know if it was to die today that it would inherit the kingdom of heaven. Why do you want to torment this young father that way?

I know Brian knows better, but your terminolgy/opinion is very hurtful!

There are probably a lot, on this board, that agree, but are afraid to express their feelings, since you are a moderator!

MEE

[ March 01, 2005, 03:36 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

In referance to MEE's post February 28, 2005 08:28 AM. I'm hope there will be an appolgy too. That was not nice at all.


My bible tells me until we come to the age of accountability (knowing right from wrong) we are inocent. Yes we are born in sin, but a baby and the mentally handicapped people are not knowledgable of this yet.

Wheres the love?

Music4Him

 

This really concerns a LOT Of us, El_Guero.

Music4him, can you please post the scripture that speaks of the age of accountability?

 

There are some on this thread who have referred to this passage to justify baptism for salvation. Let's really LOOK at what Jesus said.


Joh 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
We all seem to agree with this one, don't we?
4
Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Nicodemus is confused. He thinks Jesus is talking about PHYSICAL THINGS.
5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jesus clarifies Himself. He is saying there are TWO births. One is physical. One is Spiritual. This is why He states water and Spirit.
6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jesus then makes this quite plain. The FLESH birth is WATER. (Haven't you ever seen a "water bag" break during birth?) There is NO baptism in view here. The SPIRIT birth is OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD.

Really quite simple. This very Scripture is one in which my Pastor could not answer. Among other Scriptures He could not answer Biblically, is why I LEFT the UPC.I used to be UPC, so I KNOW what it is ya'll are trying to teach. It just IS NOT THERE!

Doubting Thomas; I have intentionally IGNORED you because I was off topic. If you wish to debate the issue, do a search about Kingdom Exclusion. It has been addressed sufficiently before in several threads on this board. I won't go into it again, that is unless you wish to do it via PM.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

So you ignore me because you were "off-topic"? Hmmm...

Don't need to--if one is ultimately excluded from the Kingdom it means that one is finally not saved. No amount of dispensationalist hermeneutical gymnastics will convince me otherwise (been there, done that).

 

That is not what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that he is a lost sinner the day he was born, condemned to Hell, in need of a Saviour. He was born with a sin nature. You don't have to teach him to lie and sin. You have to teach him to tell the truth and do right. He does things contrary to God's laws naturally because he has inherited the sin nature of Adam. In no way is he innocent and pure. He is a liar, and he was born that way.

DHK </font>[/QUOTE]DHK, this is a low blow! I didn't think that even you could stoop so low and be so cruel. What kind of a man are you anyway?

This baby is approximately 4 months old and you know if it was to die today that it would inherit the kingdom of heaven. Why do you want to torment this young father that way?

I know Brian knows better, but your terminolgy/opinion is very hurtful!

There are probably a lot, on this board, that agree, but are afraid to express their feelings, since you are a moderator!

MEE [/QUOTE]
No, Brian quite clearly stated the doctrine of the immaculate conception as applied to his infant. I realize my adjectives were quite harsh--some would say too harsh. But his post wasn't innocent. Not only did he state the Catholic doctrine of Immaculate conception and apply that to his son, but he also deliberately misinterpreted Psalm 51:5 to justify his doctrine. He made no mistake as to what he believed in this area--a baby is not a sinner. It was spelled out clearly. My words are not half as descriptive as what the Bible says about the unsaved:

Romans 3:12-18 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes.
DHK

[ March 01, 2005, 03:41 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

So let me get this straight then DHK. If a baby dies at the age of say 2 years old, will he go to heaven??

By your earlier post it would seem that since he is: quote: a lost sinner the day he was born, condemned to Hell, in need of a Saviour. He was born with a sin nature. You don't have to teach him to lie and sin. You have to teach him to tell the truth and do right. He does things contrary to God's laws naturally because he has inherited the sin nature of Adam. In no way is he innocent and pure. He is a liar, and he was born that way., that he should go to hell.

Do I understand that correctly?

Peace,

Tam

[ March 01, 2005, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: DHK ]