Infant Baptism

Thanks for sharing that Don!

In Christ forever,
Brian

 

Brian and Don, ya'll are right on the money with the two previous posts! Don't forget. Baptism doesn't Save anyone.

As for the Scripture you quoted Brian, let me again say that there is nothing wrong with believer's baptism. The Bible is just a little more comprehensive than one verse though.

Adam, bringing an infant to be baptized or walking up there yourself isn't Baptism. Baptism isn't a work. Baptism is what God does through the water and the word.

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

Sir Ed said:
"I can't speak for the Holy Spirit, but the answer seems to be no. Can a person "leave" the Holy Spirit? Sure."

Ed, please clarify the above statement, if you really believe what Don and I said is true. Thanks!
In Christ forever, Brian

 

"Adam, bringing an infant to be baptized or walking up there yourself isn't Baptism. Baptism isn't a work. Baptism is what God does through the water and the word."

...then what exactly is the work that God does when an infant is baptized?

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Fly Free
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>then what exactly is the work that God does when an infant is baptized?
Until Next Post, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The work of God is bearing Witness, if done using water and Christ’s words. “The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are children of God”: Romans 8:16 The work of God is to make a new creation. We can't do that, only God can.

God Bless

 

Dear Disciple, thank you for your input, but I want to hear from sir ed on this one- not cause I don't like ya' but because he is coming from a Lutheran perspective. Thanks!

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Brian, there is a world of difference between having God's love and Grace and accepting the gift of Salvation.

The gift is there for all and we all have it handed to us at one time in our lives (Baptism, hearing a good preacher, reading a Bible in a hotel room, whatever), but we don't all accept it.

Adam:

Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Luke 7:30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
John 1: 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 1: 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Dear Adam:
I like to present the Catholic answer just for the record.

God Bless

 

Sir Ed-

So what you are saying is that when an infant is baptized it recieves the Holy Spirit?

 

Ed, I think what we have is a problem with understanding what eachother is saying. I just want to know if you believe once the Holy Spirit is in someone will it ever not be in that person. Do you believe the Holy Spirit comes and goes with our sin? Does the Holy Spirit come in and give us eternal life? and if it is eternal then it can't go away. Hope I am clear but fear I am not.
In Christ eternally,
Brian

 

Brian, I don't believe the Holy Spirit comes and goes with our sin. The Holy Spirit in and of itself doesn't give us eternal life. Only having faith and accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior does that.

 

Ed, The Holy Spirit enters us when we get saved (by Jesus absolutely) so if you are saved you have the Holy Spirit, the two go hand in hand and you cant have one without the other and remember that God is eternally exsistant in the three persons Father, Son and Holy Spirit anyway. Thanks for your answers!
In Father,Son and holy Spirit,
Brian

 

So what you are saying is the Holy Spirit isn't available to us until we "get saved." You for instance probably "got saved" on a particular day at a particular time. So what you are saying is that God didn't love you, the Holy Spirit wasn't there for you, and Salvation wasn't available to you until (for example) March 23, 1996 at 4:00 pm.

That is where the difference comes in I guess. I believe that God loves each and everyone of us so much that he saved us 2000 years ago by offering his only begotten son on that cross for us all. Thats why Jesus preached to us all. He loves us so much that the Holy Spirit is all around us for us to ask into our hearts at any time. Eternal Salvation is there for the taking. It is up to us to accept those gifts. Once we do, we are his forever.

Question, if the Holy Spirit isn't available to us until after we "get saved," then what leads us to the Lord? If the Holy Spirit isn't available to the "unsaved" person, why is that? Does God not love that person?

[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

Adam, in response to your questions:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Earlier though you said that we can reject the Holy Spirit. For instance if an infant is accepted into God's family at baptism but later rejects the Holy Spirit hasn't he/she lost his salvation? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having God's Grace offered to you isn't the same as accepting it. He or she never had "coming to God the Father through Jesus Christ" Salvation just because he or she was Baptized. That Salvation isn't necessary for an infant because they themselves have not yet sinned. Baptism doesn't Save in that sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> So- are or are not infants saved when at the time of their baptism? Are all infants saved? or just those that are baptized? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, becasuse they have been cleansed of original sin. As to the second part, I don't know. Only God knows that.

[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Sir Ed ]

 

Dear Sir Ed,

Thank you for your responses. I am finding that I am learning alot through your postings.

"Having God's Grace offered to you isn't the same as accepting it. He or she never had "coming to God the Father through Jesus Christ" Salvation just because he or she was Baptized. That Salvation isn't necessary for an infant because they themselves have not yet sinned. Baptism doesn't Save in that sense."

So then there is some sort of age of accountability? I have heard of this concept before but am not aware where it is presented in scripture, it would be helpful if you could show me some passages.

"Yes, becasuse they have been cleansed of original sin. As to the second part, I don't know. Only God knows that."

I'm getting the impression that Lutherans believe we go through two "salvations".

First you have been saying that we are cleansed of original sin in our baptisms. Assuming this is correct, would the following senario play out well or do adjustments need to be made? What adjustments?

1. John Joe Smith is born. At two weeks old he is baptized cleansing him of his original sin.
2. John Joe Smith begins to grow up and sins. Thus he is in sins grasp now that he has passed the age of accountibility.
3. John Joe Smith comes to believe in Jesus Christ as his savior. He is now saved through grace by faith and is saved forever.

Thanks!

Until Next Post, Adam

 

Flyfree,

Lutherans do not believe that baptism purges orginal sin. Luther sense of the radical hold that sin has over us only allows for original sin to be conquered in the Kingdom to come.It provides for forgiveness of sin. Luther felt that the baptismal drowning and rising anew is lived out daily in the life of the believer. Not just at the time of our baptism. This is done via daily repentance. Baptism is only the start of this on-going process. Only in Christ's final coming will this cyle be completed. Until then, the old Adam lives along side of the new adam and must be daily addressed.

God's Peace.

 

I was taught in my Lutheran Sunday school class that an infant who wasn't baptized wasn't going to heaven. Only if the baby is baptized will he/she be saved. If this isn't salvation based on the acts of others, I don't know what is.

You might as well be selling indulgences.

 

Wow, some sunday school. I have often found that the level of theological education does not run that deep in churches.

But getting back to the original question, I often wonder about how instructive the NT is on infant baptism. The underlying question is the status of children born of Christian parents. This was not a big issue until later in the life of the church. Baptism, as has been pointed out in ealier postings, is about repentance. However, the NT also sees it as initiation into the community of believers. So you have children who are not capable of forming the concept of repentance, but yet will certainly be members of a faith communtiy. Very early on, the church decided to baptise them. However, I can see the reasoning behind waiting on this act. Lutheran theology does not mandate that you must baptise infants. But should children raised in the faith be accorded the same status as adult converts?

 

Dear Dailywalk-

It appears from your profile that you are a Baptist, as I told Disciple 2001 I am only interested in hearing from Lutherans. I was a Lutheran myself up until several months ago. Although I know you can add valuable insight I believe the only way you can learn about another denomination is to go straight to that denomination.

Case in Point: Luther believed that in order to be saved you MUST be baptized. It was a requirement (Luther's Large Catachism Part IV)

Thanks, Adam

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by flyfree432:
Dear Dailywalk-

I was a Lutheran myself up until several months ago. Although I know you can add valuable insight I believe the only way you can learn about another denomination is to go straight to that denomination.

Thanks, Adam<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Adam, that sounds a little odd to me. Shouldn't you have found out what Lutherans believe before leaving that church for another? (Cart before the horse?)

Did you learn what Baptists believe before joining that church?

Ron