I need to mellow out

Hmm....talking about an ad hominem attack. I am glad you know me. I am one of the few here on this board who would listen to what Catholic theology teaches.

Neal

P.S. I do not hold to works or keeping certain rules for salvation, so I am not a Pharisee.

 

Get over yourself.

Here we go again. Again, Neal, you make an accusatory remark as if I'm somehow arrogantly stuck on myself.

When are you going to stop this?

I was trying to lighten the mood and now you are the one in a tiff.

Well, you're doing a poor job at it, aren't you?

I am not the only one here who sees you as arrogant at times.

And I'm not the only one here who sees you as making something out of nothing, as other posts on this thread attest to. So what?

I was just asking you a question.

And you received your answer.. so why are you continuing the line of inherent inditement?

A simple "I do not intend my posts that way" would have sufficed.

And a simple acceptance of my answer without further ad hominem garbage would have sufficed.

There was NO ad hominem attack intended.

I'm not addressing intention. I'm addressing the fact of the matter, which is that you are addressing my person. Ad hominem in the Latin translates into the English: towards person, which is exactly the direction you have taken and are still continuing to take.

 

Ah, thank-you Carson. This is the type of thing that I am talking about. Do you just think I am stupid? I use terms I don't know? Well, rest assured, I knew what it meant. Five years of Latin helped some, plus a philosophy class.

Neal

 

Hmm....look at your responses to one little question. Looks like you have made something out of nothing!

Neal

 

I can't believe you bring up ad hominem attacks and then post things such as this. I believe you are far more guilty than I, my friend. Just drop it, Carson. I have all the answer I need. I am truly sorry that I have evidently struck something deep within you.

Neal

P.S. I am quite satisfied with the Baptist answers to Catholic arguments. And that is the first time I have been accused of a lack of self-esteem!

 

you bring up ad hominem attacks and then post things such as this.

I was posting an example of how I could pursue an argumentum ad hominem in the light of your own person, Neal.

You missed my point. That is, the point, which I explicitly stated in the next sentence:

"I can turn the tide of ad hominem drool in your own direction - but is that really what we should be doing here? Is that where Christ is calling me?

"I can firmly answer in the negative."

And I hold to my answer, leaving the hypothetical ad hominem arguments I presented behind.

Peace of Christ be with you, bro.

 

Ah, I see, it is okay for you to do it but not for me.

Neal

P.S. Please note that you said, "I wonder..." rather than, "I could ask...."

 

What I wonder about is, are you interested in any Catholic saint, canonized or not?

And indeed, there are far more saints in heaven that go unrecognized then those we give the honors of the altar to. We don't, however, neglect the "uncanonized saints" as we celebrate them on All Saints Day in October.

Which tends to confirm my suspicions that any good and holy person who happens to be Catholic would automatically fail to impress you.

Even Padre Pio or Mother Theresa, right?

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

[ May 15, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: WPutnam ]

 

Anyone who has spent any time on this board knows by now that Carson could use a good dose of humility. ( He loves to see pictures of himself) That said he does seem like a nice fellow and very intelligent and articulate and is probably one of the best apologists for the RC Church around.

 

Carson:
I appreciate your enthusiasm for the faith. You are being personally attacked here for no justifiable reason. To say one has read a book, or to refer to participation in pro-life work can hardly be called bragging about oneself. I have no problem with anyone telling the world about their pro-life work. I wish more would talk about what they are doing for the innocent unborn. I have participated in Life Chain demonstrations myself, and wish the rest of the world would join in. Thanks for the link to Crossroads, Carson. May God’s work in the Pro-Life movement continue to grow.

God Bless

 

I have a picture of myself that accompanies my posts, a bit younger then I am now, and if you delve into my web site, you will see other pictures.

Click on my profile and look for yourself, that I share not only my own picture, from age of about 3, to about 34 (the one you see in my posts) and one of me much older, holding a grandson, one of 15 grandchildren!

Look also for pictures of my wife and children, but I am remiss is showing more then one grandchild.

But one thing is for sure - I am proud as punch of my family! Do you blame me?

So, do I qualify as being in the same boastful league as Carson? Carson loves to communicate with people, including his pictures and his experiences in exuberance, yet look how it is perceived.

Incredible!

Again, methinks that all I am hearing is a bunch of sour grapes! All of you are jealous of Carson! Why don't you all face it!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Rejoice not when thine enemy falleth, and let not
thine heart be glad when he stumbleth:
Lest the LORD see it, and it displease him, and he turn
away his wrath from him.
Proverbs 24:17-18

 

Kathryn said to Carson:

I appreciate your enthusiasm for the faith. You are being personally attacked here for no justifiable reason. To say one has read a book, or to refer to participation in pro-life work can hardly be called bragging about oneself. I have no problem with anyone telling the world about their pro-life work. I wish more would talk about what they are doing for the innocent unborn. I have participated in Life Chain demonstrations myself, and wish the rest of the world would join in. Thanks for the link to Crossroads, Carson. May God’s work in the Pro-Life movement continue to grow.

All I can say here is Amen, AND AMEN AND AMEN!!!

You bring a bit of gentleness to this thread, now growing a bit agly, that we all need to see and read.

Thanks, Kathy!

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


Christ has no body now but yours;
No hands, no feet on earth but yours,
Yours are the eyes with which he looks
Compassion on this world.
Yours are the feet with which he walks to do good.
Yours are the hands with which
he blesses all the world.
Christ has no body now on earth but yours.

- St. Therese of Avila -

 

The fact of the matter is you do not have the names of the tens of thousands of "saints" in heaven, because they were not important to the church except for their cheap labor and money that was coersed from them by the church.

Mother Theresa I admire, Padre Pio I know nothing about. I am also impressed with Willie Jordan, of the Willie Jordan Mission in Los Angeles. I am impressed with Walter Martin, who so ably pointed out the unbiblical doctrines and practices of the Catholic church, all the while praising the Catholic church for the continuing good work it does growing wealthy placing grand cathedrals in the midst of the poverty of the people whose money paid for the Cathedral, never raising the poverty level of the people.

It's OK that you remember the names of the popes, so long as you remember they were mere mortals, and not Gods. But to cannonize some for their contribution to the organization while not cannonizing the meek and lowly, is nothing more than self aggrandizement, just like Hollywood.

 

Here is a partial list of some soon to be canonized saints who were not Popes.

Catholic Martyrs of the Holocaust:

Blessed Teresa Bracco (1924-1944) -- Italian Citizen (Santa Giulia).
Blessed Titus Brandsma (1881-1942) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau).
Blessed Marcel Callo (1921-1945) -- Jocist layman (Mathausen).
Blessed Jozef Cebula(1902-1941) -- Oblate priest (Mathausen)
Blessed Stefan Wicenty Frelichowski (1913-1945) -- Polish pastor (Dachau)
Blessed Jakob Gapp (1897-1943) -- Marianist priest (Ploetzensee).
Blessed Nikolaus Gross (1898-1945) -- Lay editor (Ploetzensee).
Blessed Jozef Jankowski (1910-1941) -- Pallotine priest (Auschwitz)
Blessed Hilary Januszewski (1907-1945) -- Carmelite priest (Dachau)
Blessed Helene Kafka (1894-1943) -- Franciscan nun (Vienna).
Saint Maximilian Kolbe (1894-1941) -- Franciscan priest (Auschwitz).
Blessed Michal Kozal (1893-1943) -- Polish bishop (Dachau).
Blessed Karl Leisner (1915-1945) -- German priest (Dachau).
Blessed Bernhard Lichtenberg (1875-1943) -- German monsignor (Dachau).
Blessed Alphonsus Mary Mazurek (1891-1944) -- Polish Carmelite (Nawojowa Gora)
Blessed Otto Neururer (1882-1940) -- Austrian priest (Buchenwald).
Blessed Anastazy Jakub Pankiewicz (1882-1942) -- Franciscan priest (Dachau)
Blessed Julia Rodzinska (1899-1944) -- Dominican nun (Stutthof)
Blessed Jozef Stanek (1916-1944) -- Pallotine priest (Warsaw)
Blessed Boleslaw Strzelecki (1896-1941) -- priest of Radom (Auschwitz)
Saint Edith Stein (1891-1942) -- Carmelite nun (Auschwitz). On the same day of her death, August 9, 1942, there also perished at Auschwitz Rosa Stein (1883-1942), her sister, and six members of the Loeb Family all Trappists (three nuns, two priests, and one brother).
108 Polish Martyrs of World War II (1939-1945): Among them were Anton Julian Nowowiejski (1858-1941), an aged archbishop who died in the German death camp at Dzialdowo, where he refused to step on a crucifix; Henryk Kaczorowski (1888-1942), seminary rector at Wloclawek; Ewa Noiszewka (1885-1942) and Marta Wolowska (1879-1942), two Sisters of the Immaculate Conception who were executed at Gora Pietrelewicka in Slonim for hiding Jewish childlren; and Maria Anna Biernacka (1888-1943), one of nine lay persons (she was a benefactress of the Redemptorists in Warsaw) who chose to be executed (she was shot on 13 July 1943 near Grodno) to save her unborn grand child. These were beatified along with George Kaszyra (1904-1943) and Anthony Leszczewicz (1890-1943), Marian priests, (they perished among some 1,500 victims burned alive by the Nazis in Roscia, Belarus, on 17-18 February 1943), whose causes had been opened, on 26 January 1992 in Poland. On June 13, 1999,Pope John Paul II beatified them (including two other bishops, Wladyslaw Goral (1898-1945) and Leon Wetmanski (1886-1941) and many priests, like Jozef Pawlowski (1890-1942) in Kielce and Zygmunt Pisarski (1902-1943) in Lublin, who risked his life to help Jews; and religious, among them Capuchins like Anciet Koplinski (1875-1941); Franciscans like Bruno Zembol (1905-1942), and Salesians like Jozef Kowalski (1911-1942), who died at Auschwitz, not to mention nuns like Maria Antonina Kratochwil (1881-1942), a member of the School Sisters of Notre Dame (she helped Jewish girls in prison), and Maria Klemensa Staszewska (1890-1943), executed at Auschwitz because she hid Jewish girls in a convent. While fifteen of those victims were martyred at Auschwitz and forty-three at Dachau, among the others beatified were also five young Catholic men, The Martyrs of Poznan, who were associated with the Salesians were beheaded at Dresden for their part in resistance activities: Czeslaw Jozwiak (1919-1942), Edward Kazmierski (1919-1942), Edward Klinik (1919-1942), Franciszek Kesy (1920-1942), and Jarogniew Wojciechowski (1922-1942). Although at least eighty Polish Jesuits were martyred by the Nazis, none was included among the thirty-three religious beatified that day. However, it is expected that they will be included in a special ceremony at a future date when the preparation of their causes is concluded.
Emilian Kovtch (1884-1944), a priest from the Ukrainian Eparchy of Stanislaviv (Ivano-Frankivsk) who died in ovens of Majdanek (Poland) concentration camp, as a victim of the Nazis in 1944, is scheduled for beatification in Pope John Paul II's trip to the Ukraine in June 2001.

God Bless

P.S.

We are all called to be saints.

 

I agree absolutely.

And for those who are starting to say otherwise, no, he is not being persecuted. It was an honest question. He has made far more personal attacks and been far more mean-spirited in his subsequent posts than I have.

Neal

 

I last said to Yelsew:

Even Padre Pio or Mother Theresa, right?

To which you replied:

The fact of the matter is you do not have the names of the tens of thousands of "saints" in heaven, because they were not important to the church except for their cheap labor and money that was coersed from them by the church.

No, I don't know the "names of tens of thousands of saints in heaven" and neither does the Church - They are known only to God. And by the way, being "Catholic" is not a requirement for being a saint.

And now look at your last statement in the above. How appalling to see this come out, in the light of the title of this thread!

Mother Theresa I admire, Padre Pio I know nothing about.

Famous Capuchin Franciscian priest who bore the wounds of Christ ("Stigmata") and who possessed other supernatural capabilities (bilocation, a healing touch, and the discernment of sins on the souls of others...) I won't go into the details here, but read of his life sometime.

I am also impressed with Willie Jordan, of the Willie Jordan Mission in Los Angeles. I am impressed with Walter Martin, who so ably pointed out the unbiblical doctrines and practices of the Catholic church, all the while praising the Catholic church for the continuing good work it does growing wealthy placing grand cathedrals in the midst of the poverty of the people whose money paid for the Cathedral, never raising the poverty level of the people.

I used to watch Walter Martin on the Ankerberg show when he was still in good health. I must confess I do not know of Willie Jordan, and many thousands of good non-Catholic Christians that shame me in my lack of charity and good will. I hold in great respect, Billy Graham and his son now in the active ministry. Any man or woman who does the work of Christ has my respect and admiration. I personally fall short of those achievements.

It's OK that you remember the names of the popes, so long as you remember they were mere mortals, and not Gods. But to cannonize some for their contribution to the organization while not cannonizing the meek and lowly, is nothing more than self aggrandizement, just like Hollywood.

Never was there a time that I elevated any of the saints in the formal Calender of Saints to the level of a god, and that includes the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Being a convert to Catholicism, it would take too long how it was I had to tear through the many misconceptions that others have of the Catholic Church. I do have the one suggestion to make of others who seek the truth - give some credence to the fact that of the many churches that now exist in a babbling and confusing sea of them, consider the one that is the most persecuted. And then consider that this persecution just may be the work of Satan working in the hearts of others who would hate her so...

God bless,

PAX

Bill+†+


"Gloria in excelsis Deo"

(Intoned by the celebrant of the Mass.)

(The choir response.)

Et in terra pax homininus
bone voluntatis
Laudamus te
Benedicimus te
Adoramus te
Glorificamus te,
Gratias agimus tibi propter
magnum gloriam tuum.
Domine Deus, Rex Coelestis,
Deus Pater omnipotens
Domine Fili unigenite
Jesu Christe Domine Deus
Agnus Dei Filius Patris
Qui tollis peccata mundi
miserere nobis.
Qui tollis peccata mundi,
suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteramPatris,
miserere nobis.
Quoniam tu solus Sanctus,
Tu solus Dominus
Tu solus Altissimus
Jesu Christe.
Cum Sancto Spiritu
in gloria Dei Patris
Amen.

- The Ambrosian Gloria -


http://www.solesmes.com/sons/gloria.ram

(Real monks chanting....)


Gregorian Chant - God's music!

 

Neal, how about simply recognizing that you had a lapse in judgement and say, "Sorry."

 

Padre Pio I know nothing about.

I suggest a book I'm reading at this moment on Padre Pio at present: Meet Padre Pio - Beloved Mystic, Miracle-Worker, and Spiritual Guide by Patricia Treece (Ann Arbor: Servant Publications, 2001). It's very insightful and an easy read at 141 pages with generous line spacing.
_

"So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any incentive of love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. Do nothing from selfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus" (Saint Paul).

"For the word of God is a light to the mind and a fire to the will. It enables man to know God and to love Him. And for the interior man who lives by the Spirit of God through grace, it is bread and water, but a bread sweeter than honey and the honeycomb, a water better than wine and milk. For the soul it is a spiritual trasure of merits yielding an abundance of gold and precious stones. Against the hardness of a heart that persists in wrongdoing, it acts as a hammer. Against the world, the flesh and the devil it serves as a sword that destroys all sin" (St. Lawrence of Brindisi {b. 1559; d. 1619}; Liturgy of the Hours, Vol. III, p. 1542).

 

Already tried that. I wasn't taken seriously.

Besides, I am at fault for starting this, but I am extremely suprised by the way Carson reacted. I am not the only one who needs to give an apology.

Neal

 

Maybe Mozier can spread his "mellowing out" approach around a bit to the rest of us. I could sure use some "mellowing" -- and I may not be the only one.

Our collective blood pressure may be the better for it!

God bless,

Mark