Do Christians become perfect with the Resurrection of the Dead?

Heb 11: 39. And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40. God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 12: 22. But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Eph 4:11. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12. For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14. That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Gen 6: 8. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Job 1:1. There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Ps 37: 37. Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
38. But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

GOD said this to Lucifer:

Eze 28:13. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the Beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer did not 'try to be perfect, and that was his sin'. He tried to usurp the throne of God!!! He wanted to BE God. Wanting to be LIKE God, perfect, is not a sin!!! In fact we are commanded by Christ to do so!!

Mat 5: 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

So then God blasphemed when He called Noah, Abram, Job, etc. Perfect? David is called perfect well over 20 times, when being compared to Solomon. BY GOD.

You have no proof of this claim. There is NO verse in the Bible that states that by trying to be perfect is a sin, nor does it state that believing you will be perfected BY GOD when we are 'changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump'!!!

You are wrong.

Who is saying we will be an exact replica of God? Who has claimed that? NNE. No one (except perhaps some Mormons) believe that they will be 'gods'.

The passage in 1 Cor 15 PLAINLY states that we will be in the same form as Christ, who you claim to be God, when we are changed.

Upon those two assertions, the one being that Christ IS God, and the second being that we will be changed to be 'like Him' (agreeing with Scripture), it is YOU that is proclaiming LOUD AND CLEAR that WE will be 'gods'!!!

I have a question for you. If we are not made 'perfect' in Christ at His Coming, then what will our 'imperfections' be?

The Bible says that affliction will not rise up a second time. If there is any blemish, or spot or proverbial wrinkle in any of us, that leaves room for failure, and God's promise will fail!

Only upon the PERFECTION of the Saints of God will there be truth to the following verses:

Nah 1:9. What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Rev 21: 4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Your doctrine is in error. We will be perfect. Without any imperfection in us.

I praise God for that Promise to us!!

God Bless,
Kelly

 

You will be complete. You will not be perfect. Nothing in the Bible says you will be perfect. If you would be perfect you would be God. That is what Lucifer strived to be, and thus was kicked out of heaven. Of course he could never in his deceived mind attain perfection. Only God is perfect. To claim that you will be perfect is blasphemous, for it is to claim that you will be God.

The Bible says you will be redeemed, you will be made complete, you will be like Him; BUT you will not be an exact perfect replica of God. You will not be perfect in other words; only complete.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Regardless of what you think I believe, you are wrong.</font>[/QUOTE]Thank you for your opinion. I'll look forward to seeing some someworthwhile evidence to backup what you say.

In does not plainly say that we will be perfect. And I do deny that it does.

I have stuck to the subject at hand. You have suddenly jumped into the middle of a conversation and accused me of not answering a question, and changing the subject??? What's this?
Nevertheless here is some information for you to chew on:

The word “perfect” is used 99 times in 94 verses.
In verses like Mat.5:48 and Eph.4:12,13, the word “teleios” is used which means, complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with 3588) completeness:--of full age, man, perfect.
Notice the word “perfect” is at the very end, being the most obscure meaning of this word.
It’s primary meaning is “complete.”
In Hebrews 9:11 it is translated “full age.”

The word to “be perfect” (teleios) in Phil.3:12 is translated “consecrated” in Heb.7:28; “fulfill,” in Acts 19:28; “finish,” in John 4:34, 5:36, 17:4, and Acts 20:24;

The word “Kataridzo” is also translated perfect six times. Hosever it is also translated: restore, mend, frame, prepare.

Words have meanings The primary meaning of “perfect” is complete.
DHK

 

Revelation
5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Read carefully this fifth chapter of Revelation. Of all the heavenly creatures in heaven, whether human or not, there was none that was worthy to open the book, to loose the seals thereof, or even to look thereon. There was none in heaven: not even Michael the archangel had such power to do so. No elder, no beast, no angel, no creature at all could open that book. Do you think you would have the power to do so? John wept because there was no one to open it. He certainly knew that he couldn't open it.

Why do you so arrogantly presume that just because you will have a resurrected body that it will be perfect enough to do the same things that the perfect lamb of God can do. You won't be able to do such things because you won't be perfect. You will be complete, not perfect. No one ever promised perfection.
DHK

 

If you don't understand the import of the quote, I can't help you. In heaven you will not be the greatest--even in your resurrected body. There was NONE in all of Heaven that was worthy enough to open the Book. Only Christ could do that. Your resurrected body will stil have limitations. It will not be perfect.

Mark 7:
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

kardia kar-dee'-ah
prolonged from a primary kar (Latin cor, "heart"); the heart, i.e. (figuratively) the thoughts or feelings (mind); also (by analogy) the middle:--(+ broken-)heart(-ed).

(Prov 23:7 KJV) For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

The heart and the mind are interchangeable in the Bible. They are what we know as the brain. The heart thinks. The brain thinks. Will we be perfect in heaven. Will our brain be perfect in heaven. The only person to have a perfect brain is Christ. He alone is omniscient. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to understand?
DHK

 

DHK,

That passage in Revelation is pertaining to the time prior to the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

THEREFORE, there are no DEAD Saints in heaven yet!

John was seeing the FUTURE. A 'time' in which DEAD Saints are not in heaven yet, because they HAVE NOT put on immortality yet.

Your 'new' false doctrine ONCE AGAIN depends upon one of your OTHER false doctrines.



And you want to accuse ME of immaturity????

 

Perhaps you should read my post a little more carefully. I know the scene is pre-resurrection; I never said it wasn't. What I did say is that it is arrogant for individuals like yourself to presume that even with your resurrected body that you will be greater than all the heavenly creatures in heaven--great enough to open the Book which John testified that there was NNE in Heaven who could accomplish such a feat. Now that is arrogance.
DHK

 

There are two points you consistently fail to address.
1. In the above verse: "NEW" does not mean perfect.

2. The Old English word "perfect" does not mean what the modern word "perfect" means. It means "complete" or "mature." Not until you come to that understanding will you understand what is being discussed in this thread.

According to your own Catholic links we will not have a "perfect" body in heaven. The resurrected body will not be complete. Parts of it will be left behind. You specifically led me to a link where the Catholic Church believes the genitals and the entrails will not be raised with the rest of the body. Pure speculation that the Bible never comments on! It tells us that we will be raised--a complete body. You deny your own church's doctrine.
DHK

 

The same statement that you have made above applies to yourself. You have no Scriptural support for your position. The reason for this is that you fail to address two important issues that I have put before you already:

Try tackling these words first.
Remember that perfection is found only in God. Man can never reach perfection. That is the crux of this discussion. Only God is perfect.
DHK

 

If Scripture wanted to say we would be “complete”, "mature", but “imperfect” at the Resurrection of the Body it could have said that.</font>[/QUOTE]

Now you are grasping at straws. Justin Martyr never, never, at any time in his life used the word "perfect." The word "perfect" did not exist at the time; neither did the English language. His translator may have used the word "perfect," but when was that, and from what language did he translate? I am not interested in what Justin had to say anyway. I am interested in what the Bible has to say. The Bible never uses the word "perfect" either. It uses words like "teleios," which when translated as "perfect" 400 years ago, mean "complete" or "mature" today.

[QUOTE}“For if on earth He healed the sicknesses of the flesh, and made the body whole, much more will He do this in the resurrection, so that the flesh shall rise perfect and entire.” St. Justin Martyr, Fragments On the Resurrection </font>[/QUOTE]It makes a whole lot more sense if you say "complete and entire," which was probably the sense that he was trying to convey.

Now you are into slander agian. No one said that anything will be imperfect. New does not equate to perfect. It doesn't necessarily mean that it is imperfect either. Need I remind you that pefection belongs only to God. That is God's attribute. God alone is perfect, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. Why do you continue to ascribe attributes that belong only to God, to God's creation. You are not God; never will be God. Thus you are not perfect, and never will be perfect. Only God is perfect. You cannot ascribe perfection to yourself, or anyone else.

(Mat 19:17 KJV) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God:

(Mark 10:18 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

(Luke 18:19 KJV) And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Do you get the idea yet?
DHK

 

Then what have you been relying on, if not the English. The Greek word, teleios, for example, translated perfect, means complete. End of story.
DHK

 

I agree. You have been relying on the Word of God, just like the Jehovah Witnesses's have been relying on the Word of God. They don't even believe in the resurrection; just a "spirit" resurrection. But do use the Word of God. They do rely on the Word of God, and so do you--just like them.

You completely ignore what the word "perfect" means in the Greek language, the language in which the New Testament was written in, and therefore have no clue as to the meaning of the verses in which the word is used.
DHK