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Do Christians become perfect with the Resurrection of the Dead?

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Kathryn, Aug 4, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And - then we shall "BE LIKE HIM" as we find in 1John 4 - we "shall SEE Him AS HE IS" by virtue of the fact that THEN - in that future day of resurrection and the redemption of the body "We shall be Like Him". Perfect in form, sinlessly perfect. But "not God".

    However "some" conclude that "God ALONE is perfect" - even though Christ says "BE YE perfect EVEN as your Father in Heaven is Perfect" showing that in our sphere we too can be made complete without "being God".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #101 BobRyan, Aug 11, 2003
  2. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:

    The New Testament Greek Lexicon:

    Teleios:
    1. brought to its end, finished
    2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
    3. perfect
    4. that which is perfect
    a. consummate human integrity and virtue
    b. of men
    1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

    In Greek, teleios is a functional term. To be perfect a thing must realize fully the purpose for which it has been produced. Teleios comes from the noun telos, which means purpose, end, goal.

    The end purpose, the goal, is our sanctification. Scripture says our goal is our inheritance of the Glory of God with the Resurrection of the Body.

    The Glory of God is perfect. The Greek Lexicon says Teleios means these things: brought to its end; finished; wanting nothing necessary to completeness; perfect; that which is perfect, our adulthood and maturity.

    We reach this goal or completion at the Resurrection of the Body. We are made, as St. Justin Martyr said in 100 AD, "perfect" and "entire" with the Glory of God.

    Because of the fall:
    "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ;" Romans 3:23

    We have been Redeemed and now rejoice in the hope of the glory of God:

    "By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. " Romans 5:2

    "Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ ." 2 Thessalonians 2:14


    At the Redemption of the Body (Resurrection of the Body):

    "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away." 1 Peter 5:4

    "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord." 2 Corinthians 3:18

    The Glory of God is complete and perfect. When we reach our goal, when we are glorified with the Glory of God, we are made perfect and complete with the Redemption of the body.

    We are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. Actually the Glory of God here can not adequately be expressed by the English word "perfect".

    You can continue to make personal attacks on me, but I will accept the teaching of Jesus Christ and His Church. You have no support for the position that we will not be made perfect. The Glory of God is perfect___ this is our inheritence. The Rock His work is perfect.

    We will love, honor, and obey God for all eternity as perfect children of God. We will be perfect brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, all posible because of His Grace from the merits of Jesus Christ on the cross. We will have the Glory of Our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thess 2:14

    God Bless
     
    #102 Kathryn, Aug 11, 2003
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    My main contention is that we will be like Him but that is all; for we cannot be God--absolute perfection.
    The word "like" indictes that a simily is being used. Thus the meaning of the word "like" is "as," "similar to," but not "exactly the same." We shall be like Him, but not exactly. We won't be clones. In some sense the body of Christ is not flawless is it? He still retains the scars of the nail prints in his hands.

    There is much speculation about the resurrection body. We will not know exactly what it will be like until we get there. It will have some limitations, which puts it out of the realm of perfection. We will be learning. Our knowledge will continue to increase in eternity. That fact alone tells us that we will not be perfect. I believe we assume too much.
    The word perfect in our Bibles simply means complete. God will redeem and complete our frail human bodies. He gives us some promises that we can look forward to such as: no more pain; no more tears, etc. But he does't promise perfection. God alone is perfect.

    Does Christ give a command that is impossible to obey. If you can obey this command are you then now "Perfect?" If not, why not?
    The answer is because the word perfect means complete and mature.

    Eph.4:
    11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    We are given pastors, evangelists, and other leaders in order that "the believers become perfect??" No. In order that the believers become more mature in the faith. So that they come together in the unity of the faith. So that they be no more like children tossed to and fro, carried about with every wind of doctrne.
    Perfection in the Bible is seen more as maturity, completion.
     
    #103 DHK, Aug 12, 2003
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is what you quoted as the meaning of perfect:

    The New Testament Greek Lexicon:

    Teleios:
    1. brought to its end, finished
    2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
    3. perfect
    4. that which is perfect
    a. consummate human integrity and virtue
    b. of men
    1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

    In Greek, teleios is a functional term. To be perfect a thing must realize fully the purpose for which it has been produced. Teleios comes from the noun telos, which means purpose, end, goal.

    Now fit that into what you just said.

    We will love, honor, and obey God for all eternity as perfect children of God (those who have reached their purpose, their end, their goal). We will be perfect brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, (as those who have reached their purpose, their end, their goal).

    By looking at the definition above you can ascertain that the word "perfect" does not mean "perfection" as in the way one describes God, but simply complete or mature, one who has reached their goal or purpose. That is what your definition says.
    DHK
     
    #104 DHK, Aug 12, 2003
  5. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK, you say:
    Jesus Christ has a glorified body without holes and flaws. He showed the wounds to prove to the doubters who He was. He is not in heaven with a huge hole in His side and holes in His hands for all eternity. In an instant, Jesus Christ can be transfigured as He showed Peter, James, and John. He showed His Glorified body even before the Resurrection of His Body. Jesus Christ is not limited by time. We are however limited to time. We have to wait for the Redemption of the body.

    Matthew 17:2
    And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light.

    Mark 9:2
    Six days later, Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John, and *brought them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them;


    Jesus Christ showed them what His glorified body was going to look like in the future. When Jesus comes in Glory it will be without the holes. He will be complete and perfect and in Glory.

    If a Christian is shot in the head, they will not spend eternity in heaven with a huge hole in their forehead. The glorified body will be perfect and entire.

    God Bless

    P.S.
    Regarding the definition, you need to read the whole definition, and not ignore what you don't want it to mean.

    Teleios:
    1. brought to its end, finished
    2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
    3. perfect
    4. that which is perfect
    a. consummate human integrity and virtue
    b. of men
    1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

    Nothing about holes, wounds, imperfections. The Glory of Jesus Christ, our inheritence, is perfect and complete.
     
    #105 Kathryn, Aug 12, 2003
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Believe what you will; but I believe the Bible.

    John 20:
    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
    27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
    28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

    This happened after the resurrection, when Jesus had already been glorified, in his resurrection body, the same body which he has today.
    DHK
     
    #106 DHK, Aug 12, 2003
  7. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:
    Then you don't believe Jesus' glorified body is "complete". He is not "complete" if He has holes in His side and hands.

    At the time Jesus showed His wounds He had not yet ascended to heaven to be with the Father. He remained 40 days to show the world it was He who was willingly crucified, and rose from the dead.

    “To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.” Acts 1:3

    We will not have bullet holes or knife holes in our heads either for all eternity. We will not have to visit people for 40 days to prove who we are. With our Glorified bodies we will be perfect and complete as Jesus Christ is perfect and complete.

    “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:18


    God Bless
     
    #107 Kathryn, Aug 12, 2003
  8. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Kathryn,

    have you considered that the resurrection body you speak of is given to you "within" the kingdom of God.

    that being a "spiritual" body to house your spirit, within a spiritual kingdom. and nothing to do with a future physical earth and a new physical body to come.

    (I do not say that we are not to receive a new physical body.)

    yet the scriptures speak of living in a spiritual kingdom today..with a new spirit..and a new body.
     
    #108 Me2, Aug 12, 2003
  9. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    Me2:
    Yes, I believe the Kingdom of God is on earth and in heaven. Our Sanctification begins with baptism here on earth. Our bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit here. I have limited the topic of this thread however to the Resurrection of the Dead, to show the completion and perfection of this event. We don't have the crown of Glory yet. The crown of Glory is perfect and complete.

    God Bless
     
    #109 Kathryn, Aug 12, 2003
  10. 3AngelsMom

    3AngelsMom <img src =/3mom.jpg>

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    Perhaps you should read my post a little more carefully. I know the scene is pre-resurrection; I never said it wasn't. What I did say is that it is arrogant for individuals like yourself to presume that even with your resurrected body that you will be greater than all the heavenly creatures in heaven--great enough to open the Book which John testified that there was NO ONE in Heaven who could accomplish such a feat. Now that is arrogance.
    DHK     </font>[/QUOTE]Again,

    WHO said ANYTHING about US being able to open a book that IS IN HEAVEN, where NONE OF US are going to be until AFTER the resurrection.

    Think about that.
     
    #110 3AngelsMom, Aug 12, 2003
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no time in Heaven.
    Think about that.
    DHK
     
    #111 DHK, Aug 12, 2003
  12. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:

    The Resurrection of the dead with the accompanying Redemption of the Body, where we are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord , comes after the opening of the seals not before.

    “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:18

    There is before and after in heaven___ before creation, and after creation, before the Redemption and after the Redemption__Before the Resurrection of the Body and after the resurrection of the Body___ before the new heavens and the new earth, and after the new heavens and the new earth.

    God Bless
     
    #112 Kathryn, Aug 13, 2003
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You will have to think hard about this one Kathryn. God created time for man on earth. God himself is eternal and timeless. There was no time before man, and there is no time in heaven. Time was invented strictly for the convenience of man. There is no time in Heaven.

    A day is as a thousand years; and a thousand years as a day.
    DHK
     
    #113 DHK, Aug 13, 2003
  14. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:
    We all know about the one day as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day. That has nothing to do with what we are talking about here.

    Jesus opens the seals before He comes in Glory for the Resurrection of the Dead and the Redemption of the Body. What you are saying is that there is no before or after in heaven. This verse doesn’t say that.

    It also doesn't address the “new” heavens and the “new” earth where we will live forever changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.” 2 Corinthians 3:18

    God Bless
     
    #114 Kathryn, Aug 13, 2003
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes it does. It may be a difficult concept to understand, but there is no time in heaven. Eternity is timelessnsess. It is as if the future has already taken place in eternity. There is no time, There is only time on earth, for the earth revolves around the sun to give it its seasons, and rotates on its axis to give it night and day, which is divided into units of time. God created all of that. What was before that? What will happen when the world is destroyed?

    You're right; the verse doesn't explicitly say that; but it does point to his eternality, his timelessness. That is the point that is difficult for the human mind to understand because we always think in units of time, something that God is not confined to.

    Just because it is new, doesn't make it perfect.
    The word "new" is used; not the word "perfect."

    Many people don't understand this verse properly. As in 1Cor.13:10-13, James 1:23-25, so also here in 2Cor.3:18--the same metaphor is used--a mirror (glass) representing the Word of God or more specifically the New Testament or gospel. As we look into the gospel message of the New Testament, we behold the glory of the Lord (John 1:14), and we are changed into that same image (Rom.8:29); "the image of his son," by the working of the Holy Spirit.
    DHK
     
    #115 DHK, Aug 14, 2003
  16. Kathryn

    Kathryn New Member

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    DHK:

    This may be a difficult concept to understand, but the first heaven with the seals passes away. Gone. After the Resurrection of the Body there is a new heaven and a new earth. We are not living for all eternity in the first heaven and earth with the seals.

    So, using the opening of the seals as the proof that we will not be perfect and complete for all eternity is not applicable. The subject of the thread is the Resurrection of the Body and after, not before.

    The Glory of God will be manifest in His creation. We will know, love, and serve God as His children and Jesus Christ's brothers and sisters.

    Revelation 21:4
    And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

    2 Corinthians 3:18
    But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

    John explains this ultimate completion and unity for man not as the coming of the Bible, but as our unity with God:

    Do you call Jesus Christ giving us the glory that was given to him by the Father, and that complete unity with Him that He has with the Father, not being made perfect? This is our inheritence as children of God and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. We will know, love, and serve God for all eternity in the New Heavens and the New earth after the Resurrection and Redemption of the Body.

    God Bless
     
    #116 Kathryn, Aug 14, 2003
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