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We do have our differences in doctrine and that is fine and well. But why do we claim to be of anybody other than Christ Jesus our Lord. Some are proudly Calvinists, some are called Arminians(which by the way is usually incorrect).I Corinthians 1
1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. 4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ; 5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge; 6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming F1 of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions F2 among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; 15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. 16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, F3 lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
No.Originally posted by Revmitchell:
Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
Actually the book of Galatians was written to refute false teaching.Galatians 1:6-9 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
Yes. I am of Christ. I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. I am not of Paul. I am of Christ. I hold all the words of all men to the test of what Christ has already said. I do not place the Words of Christ in subjection to what men say. I am of Christ. To say I am anything else is a sin against my identity as a Christian, thus it is a reproach against the name of Christ.Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
No.Originally posted by npetreley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Revmitchell:
Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
Yes. I am of Christ. I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. I am not of Paul. I am of Christ. I hold all the words of all men to the test of what Christ has already said. I do not place the Words of Christ in subjection to what men say. I am of Christ. To say I am anything else is a sin against my identity as a Christian, thus it is a reproach against the name of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand what you're trying to say there Sal, but can you explain this passage?Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
Actually, Jack, the 1 Corinthians passage is referring to believers. The 1 John passage is talking about unbelievers in comparison to believers. These passages are extremely relevant because they refer to differences of teaching, some true and some false that have divided people into different camps both within and without the church. This is what the OP was asking about.Originally posted by JackRUS:
That was an extremely bad choice of proof-texting Scripture. They were both talking about the unsaved in the churches, especially 1 John 2:19.
My point included (but was not limited to) divisions because of people in the church who are unsaved. As Calvi pointed out, my quotes addressed both.Originally posted by JackRUS:
That was an extremely bad choice of proof-texting Scripture. They were both talking about the unsaved in the churches, especially 1 John 2:19.
Rev....but in your original post you were not seeking the interpretation of the passage. Here is what you wanted to know (and I quote):Originally posted by Revmitchell:
In this passage the concern was that men were claiming to be of men rather than Christ. Differ in doctrine but we should all be of Christ, and in Christ. Not Calvin or Arminius.
And of course the text is very appropriate.
Your question was answered;Is it necessary to define our doctrine by some mans name?
Doesnt that weaken our position?
It most certainly is a schism that is against scripture.
Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
Now you are offering commentary on the text. You totally leave out the fact that the Corinthian church was up to its ears in problems...sexual immorality, abusing the Lord's table, partiality etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with teachers of God's word. As I have said before, a bible teacher is only as relevant as he accurately divides the word of God.RevMitchel,
The short answer is, "no." The long answer? Keep reading.
Disagreement is inherent to theological study. Not everyone is going to agree. The whole of scripture is proof of that. What did Paul write to the Galatians?
quote:Galatians 1:6-9 6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; 7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8 But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
Actually the book of Galatians was written to refute false teaching.
As theological study developed theological systems came into being. There are two major theological systems within the Christian church today: covenant (Reformed) theology and dispensational theology. Within these systems are hermenutical principles that are used to interpret scripture. The majority of Baptist's are in the dispensational camp. Disdain for labels are irrelevant. As someone told me long ago, "It is what it is." You may refuse to accept the label(s) that go along with your theologic system, but they apply nonetheless.
Reformed believers serve and follow Jesus Christ. Free will believers claim the same. You will also hear Reformed believers say they are students of John Calvin or St. Augustine. But they would invariably tell you that their allegiance to these great men of God are secondary to Christ. As for me, my acceptance of John Calvin's, Augustine's or Sproul's teachings are only relevant to the extent that they are faithful to scripture. Free will believers have their own teachers as well. I am sure they would say the same thing as I just did about their following these teachers.
You asked whether it weakens our position to use a mans name to define what we believe. If our faith was placed in that mans name, yes. But there has to be a way to categorize the different theologies within the Christian church. Let's be honest. Free will Christian's believe they are right other wise they wouldn't believe in the free agency of man. Reformed Christian's believe their view of God's sovereignty is faithful to scripture and that the free will side is wrong. Both will cite scripture as the authority for what they believe. Who is right? It depends on which side you ask.
So RevMitchel, labels do serve a helpful purpose. Are they ideal? No. It would be wonderful if all believers walked in theological unity. But that is not the reality.
Yes. I am of Christ. I am not Arminian, neither Calvinist. I am not of Paul. I am of Christ. I hold all the words of all men to the test of what Christ has already said. I do not place the Words of Christ in subjection to what men say. I am of Christ. To say I am anything else is a sin against my identity as a Christian, thus it is a reproach against the name of Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]I understand what you're trying to say there Sal, but can you explain this passage?Originally posted by J.D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Isnt all this division (i.e. I'm a Calvinist and your an Arminian) sinful?
Actually, Jack, the 1 Corinthians passage is referring to believers. The 1 John passage is talking about unbelievers in comparison to believers. These passages are extremely relevant because they refer to differences of teaching, some true and some false that have divided people into different camps both within and without the church. This is what the OP was asking about. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't think for a split second I John 1:9 is wriiten to unbelivers or even about unbelievers in comparison.Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
That was an extremely bad choice of proof-texting Scripture. They were both talking about the unsaved in the churches, especially 1 John 2:19.
Actually, Jack, the 1 Corinthians passage is referring to believers. The 1 John passage is talking about unbelievers in comparison to believers. These passages are extremely relevant because they refer to differences of teaching, some true and some false that have divided people into different camps both within and without the church. This is what the OP was asking about. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't think for a split second I John 1:9 is wriiten to unbelivers or even about unbelievers in comparison. </font>[/QUOTE]Sal - I know Calvibaptist (personally). He was referring to 1 John 2:19 as describing unbelievers. 1 John 1:8,9? Of course they are believers. I hate to speak for another, but Calvibaptist would agree with that.Originally posted by Salamander:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JackRUS:
That was an extremely bad choice of proof-texting Scripture. They were both talking about the unsaved in the churches, especially 1 John 2:19.