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Baptists and Bible Sex?

N

Netcurtains3

Guest
Hi,
Should Baptists be campaigning to change the English language to incorporate gender? A whole dimension of Bible meaning is lost in English as we have little or no concept of gender. Greek, Latin and French all use gender for nouns - I guess so does Hebrew. English is sexually repressed as a language and can be kind of wooden as a result.
Its really bordering on impossible to be a "Bible-Alone-ian" in English - all the romance is lost.
Perhaps protestants should be at the forefront in the campaign to bring back Latin as they were the ones who got it dropped.
Funny when we talk about ourselves we switch into Latin or French (curriculum vitae or "Resume").

Net.

[ December 28, 2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 
B

blush

New Member
bah, i thought this was going to be about sex.

anyway, i would argue that english has a very good concept of gender. perhaps we don't assign one to every noun, but we do have he and she, and many people have common associations of gender characteristics to some nouns and/or concepts.
 
N

Netcurtains3

Guest
lol.
Would you bet your whole life on understanding such phrases as:

"on this Rock I build my Church"

But only having English?
It seems to me you need Latin or Greek or Hebrew.

Get your kids to learn Latin:
http://www.power-glide.com/latin/latin.asp

Yes you too can have arguments with Catholic using the Latin Language.

This site looks at the Greek meaning of Rock to then clarify why Peter was the Pope.

http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/pope/

[ December 28, 2002, 08:30 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 
N

Netcurtains3

Guest
Well done !!! good reply - I never noticed that.

But I do feel you get the point (otherwise you might have said more ). There is something missing in only reading the bible in English.

Perhaps Churches should start a campaign to bring back Latin or Greek. I think it is good for Children to learn some Latin or Greek - at least they will be able to read a few snippets of the Classics in the native language of the writers.

[ December 28, 2002, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
Well done !!! good reply - I never noticed that.

But I do feel you get the point (otherwise you might have said more ). There is something missing in only reading the bible in English.

Perhaps Churches should start a campaign to bring back Latin or Greek. I think it is good for Children to learn some Latin or Greek - at least they will be able to read a few snippets of the Classics in the native language of the writers.
Click to expand...
Many Christian schools offer Greek in their High Schools. It is the language that the New Testament was written in. Latin is a dead language, and of not much value today. If you want a more accurate meaning of the word or phrase being used in the New Testament you must go back to the Greek.
DHK
 
J

Jim1999

<img src =/Jim1999.jpg>
In a sense, the Koine Greek, in which the scripture was written is also a dead language per se...It is not spoken to-day.

I find the English language quite adequate, thank you very much. It is not the English language that is at fault, it is the current rendering of it. Try a modern translation rather than the King James Version alone.

Cheers,

Jim
 
H

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
Let's resurrect this one about just who the Rock is (I wrote it about 2 1/2 years ago):

==========

Roman Catholics claim that they are the church begun by Christ and then empowered by Him to lead Christianity. This is based on Matthew 16:16-19 and parallel verses. Christ did not leave a church to govern or teach. He left the Apostles.

Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, with CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF as the chief cornerstone. (Ephesians 2:19-20)

Jesus Christ HIMSELF is the stone, or rock, of Matthew 16:18 and parallel verses. Please take a look at some of the Scriptures the disciples, and all Jews, knew:

Genesis 49:24 -- But his bow remained steady,
his strong arms stayed limber,
bacause of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd the Rock of Israel,
because of your father's God, who helps you...

Deuteronomy 32:3-4 -- I will proclaim the name of the LORD,
Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just.

Deuteronomy 32:15 -- Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, he became heavy and sleek.
He abandoned the God who made him
and rejected the Rock his Savior.

Deuteronomy 32:18 -- You deserted the Rock, who fathered you;
you forgot the God who gave you birth.

Deuteronomy 32:30 -- How could one man chase a thousand,
or two put ten thousand to flight,
unless their Rock had sold them,
unless the LORD had given them up?
For their rock is not like our Rock,
even as our enemies concede.

Those verses are from the Torah -- the first five books of our Old Testament, which are referred to by Christ and all Jews as The Law. It is very clear in The Law who the Rock is.

But let's keep going:

1 Samuel 2:2 is part of Hannah's prayer --
There is no one holy like the LORD;
there is no one besides you;
there is no Rock like our God.

2 Samuel 22:32 -- For who is God besides the LORD?
And who is the Rock except our God?

2 Samuel 22:47 -- The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock!
Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

Psalm 18 repeats these sections of 2 Samuel 22

Psalm 19:14 -- May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight,
O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 28:1 -- To you I call, O LORD my Rock;
do not turn a deaf ear to me.

Psalm 42:9 -- I say to God my Rock,
'Why have you forgotten me?
Why must I go about mourning,
oppressed by the enemy?

Psalm 62:1-2 -- My soul finds rest in God alone;
my salvation comes from him.
He alone is my Rock and my salvation;
he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

Psalm 89:26 -- "He will call out to me, 'You are my Father,
my God, the Rock, my Savior.'"

Psalm 92:15 -- The LORD is upright;
he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him.

Psalm 95:1 -- Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD;
let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

Psalm 144:1 -- Praise be to the LORD my Rock,

Isaiah 8:13-14 --
The LORD Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy,
he is the one you are to fear,
he is the one you are to dread,
and he will be a sanctuary;
but for both houses of Israel he will be
a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.

Isaiah 17:10 -- You have forgotten God your Savior;
you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

Isaiah 26:4 -- Trust in the LORD forever,
for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

Isaiah 44:8 -- You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, THERE IS NO OTHER ROCK; I KNOW NOT ONE.

Consistently, in the Law, the Poetry, and the Prophets, "Rock" is used to describe God. It should be noted in the Isaiah verses quoted that not only is God the Rock at that time, but that He will be (8:14) and that he is the Rock eternal (26:4). This eliminates any other "Rock" in which to trust or believe in Jewish or Christian theology. Every single one of the disciples was Jewish and had been bar mitzvahed. They KNEW their Scriptures. When Jesus declared to them, "And on this Rock I will build my church" they would have known IMMEDIATELY what He was referring to. He was identifying Himself as God, in agreement with Peter's statement of faith.

The saddest thing to me, of all this, is that the Roman Catholic Church counts on the fact that their members DON'T know the Scriptures. I urge Catholics to read God's Word for themselves. There are three legs supporting Roman Catholicism: ignorance, money, and fear. Take any one of those away and the Roman Catholic church will totter and fall.
 
G

Georgia2002

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
Well done !!! good reply - I never noticed that.

But I do feel you get the point (otherwise you might have said more ). There is something missing in only reading the bible in English.

Perhaps Churches should start a campaign to bring back Latin or Greek. I think it is good for Children to learn some Latin or Greek - at least they will be able to read a few snippets of the Classics in the native language of the writers.
Click to expand...
Many Christian schools offer Greek in their High Schools. It is the language that the New Testament was written in. Latin is a dead language, and of not much value today. If you want a more accurate meaning of the word or phrase being used in the New Testament you must go back to the Greek.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]
wave.gif

http://www.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/10/14/schools.latin.ap/index.html

Schools reviving a dead language
As schools focus on basics, lovers of Latin rising
Monday, October 14, 2002 Posted: 10:19 AM EDT (1419 GMT)

This is something, I had this conversation with my brother in law in Oct. and I saved the above link. Looks like Latin is making a come back and will be alive once again.

Georgia
 
N

Netcurtains3

Guest
Hi Helen,

A flaw in your argument.

You take a noun "rock" and always assume this noun has the same meaning through-out the bible.

Surely that is very shallow thinking?

You also do not take into account small rock, large rock, male rock, female rock.

The Vulgate (Vulgar - as in common) I think has some of the OLDEST versions of the old testament.

Take a quick read of this link:

http://www.christianseparatist.org/ast/hist/version.htm
 
H

Helen

<img src =/Helen2.gif>
I'm not the one doing the assuming. I just followed the word through the Bible with a Concordance.

[ December 28, 2002, 06:03 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
 
J

Johnv

New Member
English has changed consistently, and will no doubt concinue to chance for thousands of years to come. King James English is currently near death. The Greek that the NT was written in is also a pretty much a dead language. It is no longer used.

That doesn't even begin to address the issue of differences between the words that Jesus really said in Aramic, and the Greek that was used to pen the NT. Typically, you'll find the word of Jesus going from Aramic that he spoke to the Greek that was written, to King James English that was translated, to contemporary English that we use to day.
 
D

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Johnv:

That doesn't even begin to address the issue of differences between the words that Jesus really said in Aramic, and the Greek that was used to pen the NT. Typically, you'll find the word of Jesus going from Aramic that he spoke to the Greek that was written, to King James English that was translated, to contemporary English that we use to day.
Click to expand...
I don't believe this is accurate. It does not matter whether Jesus spoke the King James language, German, Chinese, or Hindi. The New Testament was inscripturated in Koine Greek. That is what God gave us as the inspired Word of God. To assume that He spoke in Aramaic is irrelevant. The inspired manuscripts were written in Koine Greek, and that is all that matters. There may very well have been some things quoted from the Aramaic language, as there were some things quoted from the Septuagint. But all things were written in the Greek manuscripts, inspired by the Holy Spirit of God. The King James language itself is not tranlated to a modern language, but modern versions are typically translated from Greek and Hebrew. I still believe that the KJV is the most accurate version that we have today, and the archaic language that it uses is not difficult to overcome.
DHK
 
N

Netcurtains3

Guest
Hi DHK,
I think someone told me the Latins and Greeks have about 10 different words and meanings for the one english word LOVE. I guess that is a bit critical.

Net.
 
C

Clint Kritzer

Active Member
Site Supporter
Perhaps protestants should be at the forefront in the campaign to bring back Latin as they were the ones who got it dropped.
Click to expand...
What does Latin have to do with the price of tea in China? If anything, ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek would be the focus for studying early manuscripts.
 
N

Netcurtains3

Guest
Hebrew: Amen.
Beatles: Let It Be.

Look guys "Agape" (special biblical greek love - not known in Hebrew - perhaps not even as a concept) it is both a noun and a verb. Septuagint translators "invented" a new meaning for agape by using it to replace the Hebrew "Hesed", a word meaning loving-kindness. There is also "Philo" - a general word for love and affection (eg philosophia -- the love of knowledge, Col 2:8).
"Agape" is the Christian love, the special Septuagint Greek love. A new word. Perhaps it was invented by St Paul? (I'm no expert, I'm probably talking a load of nonsense).
Agape is an ACTION and an OBJECT. When you are "Saved" in the Baptist sense are you simply taking on board the feeling of pocessing the OBJECT part of Agape but often REJECTING the ACTION side? Not rejecting on purpose but simply because you don't understand Greek, Hebrew or Latin. Bible-Alone in English is not the "Full-Monty". Active Love requires you to be an active Christian - Good Works.

[ December 29, 2002, 04:42 AM: Message edited by: Netcurtains3 ]
 
L

Lone Wolf

New Member
Now see, I've just started studying latin just for the fun of it. I like speaking in latin, it tends to throw people off when you say it. Especially if you use an ominous tone. Doesn't really matter what you say, it just throws them off. Fun, fun, fun.
 
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