Servants of Mary

In my last post in the last paragraph it should have read, ' . . . removing any hidden and personal sins.' Sorry.

Ray

 

Carson Weber,

I caught the idea that you were a graduate student and I took it to be in theology because you said that you enjoyed reading/studying, Dr. Journet's Theology. I guess I was hoping that you might have at your finger tips the Scriptural backing for all of those doctrinal ideas that we do not entertain as noted in my previous post.

Secondly, Revelation does not say as you have said that:

'It is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.'

God is not so busy or limited that He need rely on the saints who are already in Heaven. I don't think you want to say that God is not omniscient; He hears all of saints prayers on earth all at the same time. Christ knows no limitation as you suggest to us.

Revelation 5:8 indicates that the 'four beasts' {the four living creatures} and the twenty four elders were merely worshiping Christ and offering to Him {symbolically} the gathered prayers of all the saints who remained on the earth. The harps and the vial undoubtedly are real, and the aroma from these vials also, but they were symbolically offered to Christ via these Heavenly saints. I do not see in this verse anything that hints of the living creatures or the elders interceding to the Lord via these Heavenly,blessed creatures and saints on behalf of Christians on the earth.

Again, Christ does not need helpers; that is why we as Christians call Him God.

Revelation 5:8 says in the New International Version,

'And when he had taken it {the scroll} the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of inscence, which are the prayers of the saints.'

I like the symbolism of the incense used in the mass when I have visited a Roman Catholic Church. I took it to mean that that it was the prayers of the saints in the congregation offered up to the Lord, but it may suggest that God is so brilliant and glorious that the priest must mask His great Presence in the church. Which do you believe this to suggest?

 

Someone said, 'The present Pope believes that Mary saved his life when an attempt was made to assassinate him years ago. He leans heavily upon her intercession for his church, and humanity as a whole.'

I thought that the church was Christ's Church and Body. Doesn't Jesus get any praise anymore?

 

Howdy Carson,

you wrote, "Yes, I do have power. I have the power to pray."

I agree that we all have that type of power. That is not the power I am referring to. I am obviously talking about the power to respond. Someone who intercedes in the true sense of the word intercedes by action. We can do nothing but beg, Jesus has the power to act on our behalf, which was done in the broad sense, once for all, on the cross. Jesus nows "takes action" to remove my daily sin before it reaches God. My sin is an ugly vapor heading toward God. Jesus takes a Holy vacuum (bad, I know) and sucks up the sin before it reaches God. Better yet as all my actions are heading in a mist toward God Jesus just sucks up the ugly ones and so what reaches God is only the white and pure. Jesus intercedes, acts as a mediator, you pray on my behalf to intercede, not being sure of the result your prayers will have.

I know you think this is a useless argument and somewhat petty but there is a foundation here that I think is important.

Take care, In Christ,
Brian

 

Brother Ray --

Evangelical, eh?

Interesting. Independant, or in association with a group?

You are in a very heavily Slovak area. Have you ever gone to a Byzantine Rite Catholic Church? It is as different from the Roman Rite as day is from night, at least in administration. It took me about 5 visits, but I just fell in love with the Liturgy there. Everything is done for a purpose and symbolizes the great things which are going on in Heaven right now. That should be what the Church does, according to Hebrews 8:5.

If'n yer ever going to be in Harrisburg over a weekend, let me know and I'll take you to St. Ann's Byzantine Catholic Church and you can experience a traditional and real 6th century worship from back when the Church was one in faith, praxis, and doctrine.

I do think you would like it!!! You just seem that way.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

Carson, you said when you pray for me you are a mediator. Here is the definition of "mediate"

1 a : to effect by action as an intermediary b : to bring accord out of by action as an intermediary
2 a : to act as intermediary agent in bringing, effecting, or communicating b : to transmit as intermediate mechanism or agency
intransitive senses
1 : to interpose between parties in order to reconcile them
2 : to reconcile differences

Read all four of the definitions. You do not and cannot be a "mediator" between me and God, based on the simple definition of the word.


To your credit, the word intercession, by definition, includes prayer. You can then intercede but clearly cannot mediate, which is really what we have been arguing anyway.


In Christ,
Brian

 

More false dichotomy. Wow Ray, with eisegesis like yours we just as well throw the Bible in the trash. "Let's pick a few select verses on servanthood and make a doctrine out of them based on our pre-conceived notions" is the rule of the game.

Well Ray, I hate to burst your Buble but the Bible does not limit servanthood to God/Jesus as you imply but rather shows true servanthood of others to be subordinate to that servanthood and through it.

We can be a servant of the Church:

Romans 16:1
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, who is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea;

We are called to serve everyone.

Mark 9:35
Sitting down, He called the twelve and *said to them, "If anyone wants to be first, he shall be last of all and servant of all."

Revalations 19 even relates a heavenly creature (angel) as our servant. So does that mean he worships us.

Revelation 19:10
" I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."

Does a father who serves his children worship them? If he does it through Christ then, no he does not.

You set up a false dichotomy between being a servant of Jesus and a servant of anyone else who is a part of the Church (which Mary still is since Romans 8 says that nothing can separate us from Christ, if she is still in him she is still in the Church).
Your arguement is foolishness.
No. Servanthood comes through Christ.

 

The Church as our spiritual leader on earth, has the power to loose
and to bind. She has the power to set rules for her children, and we, as
her children, are obliged to obey her. (Catholic Convert)

With the pope having final say-so, this one sinful man could deliver any
number of ridiculous edicts and Catholics worldwide would fall in line to obey.

Imagine that!! The bible says all meats are suitable and that it is not what
goes into our mouths that defile us. The Catholic Church has shown that
they can rule otherwise, expect and get total submission and then rescind their
own orders after a short time and still have complete obedience on the part
of their followers.

Therefore the Catholic Church has the power to designate what is and is not
....SIN ??

 

This post is just too funny so I have to respond. On other threads they speak as if we are so divided we don't know who is in charge. Now here when it suits them they say we are just lock step in line with the Pope. Zombies. Funny thing is the Catholic Church has been very consistent on faith and morals over 2000 year. Funny thing is Protestants roll their own individual morality. Thus there is no agreement between them on abortion, contraception, homosexuality, alcohol consumption, and a host of other issues.

Where does the Catholic Church say that meat is bad? So did Jesus have a steak each night when he fasted for 40 days and 40 nights just so he wouldn't violate this verse? It is because it is good that we fast from it during lent. I know that fries your brain cells Singer but don't loose too much sleep over it.

[ June 05, 2003, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

Thes:

Comment was in regards to Ray's response:

To my way of thinking your explanation 'of meat on Friday' was a 'white wash'
as to how the papal authority has changed some vitally important rules
in the church. If it was a sin to eat meat decades ago, our Lord has not
changed His mind in connect with what is sin and not sin.

Word it as you may, being meat eating as a sin or disobedience a sin, but it
comes out meaning the same thing. The little Catholic kids I at fish with in grade
school on Fridays couldn't have been convinced that eating beef was not a sin in 1962.

Walking in line with the pope is not something to be admired when pope's whims
and wishes direct your actions. The modern world refers to such one as a robot. Something to do with washed brains maybe.

God forbid that we get another Pope Alexander or Leo XIII or one who
might force his own homosexual perversions on the whole Catholic Community
under the guise of infallibility. But of course all he'd have to do is issue the
edict and Catholics would fall in line like puppets to obey.

Knock yourself out, Thes.

 

The thought processes of little kids and adults should be different.

One would hope that your ability to understand the distinction between "eating meat" as a sin unto itself as contrasted with the sin of "disobedinece by eating meat on Friday" would have grown from your childhood to now. Based on your posts here, I would say that sadly that has not been the case.

Well, perhaps you are greatly concerned with what the modern world thinks of your faith. Given the state of the modern world, I think it virtue to be unconcerned by it's opinion.

It would seem that you have a lacking in your faith where it comes to the Holy Spirit and the gates of Hell prevailing.

There is that concern about the modern world again.

You know the modern world doesn't think too highly of the position that homosexual behavior is sin. Have you adjusted your beliefs to match?

 

Hi Thess. I think a lot of this servant debate is just a miscommunication.

We should only serve God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit). How do we do that? obviously by serving others. Ministry to others is how we show we are the very hands and feet of God, on earth.

If you came and helped me paint my house, you could say "I was a servant of Brian for the weekend". I can accept that. You would be serving God by serving me.

Anyway, where I struggle Thess. is saying we are serving someone who is not physically here. To say that I am a servant of Mary would require me to have the ability to do something for her. That does not seem possible when she is in Heaven worshiping God.

Question that just came to mind. Mary is called the queen of Heaven. In all the imagery in Revelations and from some OT Prophets we never hear of Mary having a throne. We hear of God's throne, elders sitting around the throne, Jesus on the right hand of the throne but never in scripture do we see a throne for Mary. Unlikely the writers of that day would miss something like that. They wrote what they saw and didn't see a throne for Mary. If there is scripture, then I am sorry, I just haven't seen any. Thoughts on that issue?

In Christian love,

Brian

 

Briguy,

Hi Brian,

It is always interesting when one Protestant makes a post, and another responds contradicting his contradiction of scripture and then contradicts scripture. Are you saying that only God sits on a throne in heaven? It seems that you are. I hope that is not what you are saying or you are clearly missing something.

Luke 22:30
that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


Revelation 4:4
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

The best explanation of who these 24 are is that they are the 12 apostles and 12 patriarcs of the OT Jews.

As for an answer about Mary being queen of heaven, we can go round and round about Rev 12, I say she is in there for all to see and you say na-na boo boo, no she's not. And of course you will raise another dichotomies as non-catholics are so good at in saying "it can't be about Mary because it's about the Church" or Israel or some such other singular explanation. It doesn't have to be either or guys.

Can one who is not in the physical prescence of another, serve them. I think the verse from Rev 19 I quoted above answers that. Angels certainly can serve us. Jesus serves us from heaven, does he not? The implication of Ray's post above was that servanthood = worship. It does not. Now you may quibble about whether we can serve a person who is in heaven or not. My guess is yes. Let's say a mother dies and some of her children are on a path to hell. By our prayers and preaching of the Gospel to those children who would like to be in heaven with them with Christ for eternity, would we not still be serving her? Seems obvious to me. I can't imagine being in heaven and not wanting my kids there and being thankful that someone would be helping them to get there.

Let's say a parent of a child dies. We are close friends with that parent. Would we not be serving not only the child but also the deceased parent by taking that child under our wing and in to our home and help them get to heaven to be with that parent with Christ.

[ June 05, 2003, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]

 

"To say that I am a servant of Mary would require me to have the ability to do something for her. That does not seem possible when she is in Heaven worshiping God."

Well in Catholic theology we are Mary's children. (rev 12 and John 19, I know na-na boo boo are not are not). Mary wants us in heaven with her son but cannot speak to us and tell us about him directly, whom she holds the greastest of love for. Whom she bore in her womb. It would pain her to see one of us not accept him as our savior. I am sure she would like to scream it out at us. But unfortunately she can't. We can however serve her by giving her message about her son to others. And coincidentally when we do that we are serving him. Does that make sense or what. That is what we can do for her or would you say she doesn't care if the rest of us get there? "Hey, I'm in, too bad for the rest of you smuks".

 

Brian,

More food for thought. In the Old Testament, book of kings and chronicles were the texts about the queen mother just filler because God couldn't think of enough else to say or do they have application in the new kingdom? Is the new kingdom just a king?

In the Davidic Kingdom was one who served the queen, not serving the king?

 

thessalonian,

Your idea of a false dicotomy is a 'smoke screen' for your erronous quasi-spiritual ideas.

It is true what you said about living saints on earth should be involved in serving one another. Truly, we need tons more of these kinds of people. But, now one can serve a dead saint like the mother of our Lord. She too awaits the resurrection from the dead. She stood in horror below the Cross; she was not on any of the three Crosses in less we Protestants missed reading something.

Even at the Marriage of Cana, Mary was a helper to Jesus and this was fine. But, now she is in a Heavenly, spiritual body above, worshipping our blessed Lord Jesus. [II Cor. chapter 5] Mary's bodily resurrection will take place at the appearing of our Lord, [I Thess. 4:16-17] along with ours if we died before He comes.

 

To all the Protestants responding to this thread:

Let me say that I do realize how very, very hard it is to hear these audulations and glories given to the Blessed Virgin. Just a little over 3 years ago, I would have been taking your side in a heartbeat. The Marian teachings are usually the hardest for Protestant converts to adapt to. That is very interesting because the dirty little secret of Protestantism is that both Luther and Calvin had a rich Marian devotion.

We are accused constantly of making up our Marian teachings either from isogesis or simply from whole cloth. But there is a very logical process. It is built "line upon line, and precept upon precept." I will try to outline it for you.

1. The covenant of God is a fact. There is such a thing as covenantal theology. I came to this while still Presbyterian, having come out of dispensational Fundamentalism.

2. The covenant is NOT a contract between parties as Calvinism teaches. It is a fundamental relationship between people in which one is given to the other. Yes, the covenant has laws of covenant in it, but it is not a "law covenant" as Calvinism teaches.

3. Covenant has principles upon which it is built. One of these principles is that of hierarchy, or headship. The principle of headship is that the greater acts on behalf of the lesser in the covenantal relationship. We see this in many, many passages in the OT, beginning with Adam's sin casting all of his children into a state of separation from God called "death".

4. Since the covenant involves family, and since Adam's sin destroyed the relationship of mankind to God, then there must be a new family in which the relationship of the Head of the Covenant restores that relationship to God. 1 Corin. 14:45 tells me that this new Head of the Covenant is Jesus, the Christ.

5. Since the Bible establishes types in the Old Covenant by which we can find proper fulfillment in the New Covenant, I have to apply the facts about Adam to Jesus and see if this still holds true:

A. Adam was human male (man). So was Jesus.

B. Adam was created without the intervention of male seed. Ditto Jesus.

C. Adam was given authority and rulership over all creation. So was Jesus after His perfection. (Matt. 28:18)

D. Adam is called "the son of God" (Luke 3:38) So is Jesus.

E. Adam was created the son of the Great King -- Almighty God, and thus destined to become a king, for that is what princes (king's sons) mature into. Jesus is now the King of the Universe.

F. Adam had a physical helpmeet named Eve, therefore, Jesus must have a PHYSICAL HELPMEET who is to be the New Eve to His being the Last Adam.

G. Eve was created from the rib of Adam and without stain of sin. The Immaculate Conception, in which the Blessed Virgin was created without sin, was only possible because the side of the Last Adam was pierced.

H. Eve was destined, as the princess/daughter of God, the bride of Adam, to be co-regent with Adam in rulership over the world. Only the Fall kept this from happening.

The glory of the lesser brings glory to the greater:

Pr 12:4 ¶ A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.

Does the glory of the Blessed Virgin detract from or add to the glory of God, who is Her divine Husband? Does the glory of the Queen take away from or add to the glory of the King?

It took me 25 years to build this foundation and put upon it the edifice called "the Catholic Faith". I need to remember this when I feel short tempered with you. It is hard to think "outside the box" when you have been taught that the box is the only way one must think.

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,

Brother Ed

 

My understanding is that anyone who is "in Christ" is not dead, but very much alive, and that is a way we cannot even begin to imagine.

Your comments?

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed

 

"
" My understanding is that anyone who is "in Christ" is not dead, but very much alive, and that is a way we cannot even begin to imagine."

Your comments?

Cordially in Christ and the Blessed Virgin,


Brother Ed "

Yes Ed, he even admits this above:

"But, now she is in a Heavenly, spiritual body above, worshipping our blessed Lord Jesus. [II Cor. chapter 5] Mary's bodily resurrection will take place at the appearing of our Lord, [I Thess. 4:16-17] along with ours if we died before He comes. "

How can someone who is dead worship unless of course they are not dead as you rightly point out?

 

Glad to see you submitted to scripture about the servant thing.

"she was not on any of the three Crosses in less we Protestants missed reading something."

At the risk of driving this thread toward sola scriptura.... :
It appears it is quite possible that you have missed alot in scripture since you clearly have read much more in to what I have said then I actually said. I never implicitly or explicitly stated that Mary was on any of the three Crosses. Now I am curious as to whether you turn of that implied reading switch that allows you to make such outlandish statements as this one above when you are reading scripture? My guess is not and you have shown evidence that you can be in serious error in reading implications in to things. Your accusations clearly shows that you superimpose your own biases of thought on to what you read.

Blessings