Servants of Mary

'That is very interesting because the dirty little secret of Protestantism is that
both Luther and Calvin had a rich Marian devotion.'

I have been trying to enlighten my Calvinist brothers that Luther and Calvin should be taken with a grain of salt, because one does not leave Catholicism and then immediately have all their 'ducks in line.' It would not surprise me that these men had a Marian devotion. After all, before Luther's enlightenment he was still crawling up cathedral steps to the altar in an attempt to find and please God. No one can cleanse themselves from spiritual darkness and confusion over night. It takes time. Some Calvinists hold "Calvin's Institutes" as close to their heart is they do God's Word. There is a difference.

'The covenant of God is a fact. There is such a thing as covenantal
theology. I came to this while still Presbyterian, having come out of
dispensational Fundamentalism.

Yes, the Abrahamic covenant is an eternal one and one in which we enjoy as believers in Jesus. [Romans 4:3-5]

Here is the deep truth; see if you understand it. Hebrews 8:6-13. There is the old covenant of the Law, [vs. 7] a 'better covenant' [vs. 6b & 7b] Watch carefully. In verse eight the writer tells us that one day God is going to find flaws with them. {plural} both covenants. Covenant theology is wrong because there is yet a third covenant that will come during the Kingdom Age on this earth. By saying that a new covenant will yet be made with Israel and Judah, He is telling us that the Israelite people will in the future be engrafted into the covenant. [Romans 11:23 & 24c,d,e] When you see these three covenants please let me know. They are there. Use the Greek language also and that will confirm it to anyone.

Anyone can see that in our day the Israelites are still blinded, for the most part, to the Gospel and truth of Jesus. This means that Hebrews 8:11 cannot fit into our time frame work. One day in the future when Christ sits in Jerusalem on His throne [Zechariah 14:16-17] all of the people will know Jesus as Savior. [Hebrews 8:11] After the Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, He will take us to His 'new Heaven' [Revelation 21:1a] and then we will be with Christ forever in His dimension called eternity.

 

Hi Ray,

God is not so busy or limited that He need rely on the saints who are already in Heaven.

I'm not saying that God is limited. God's glory is made manifest in his creation. If God is infinitely perfect in himself, then why did he create? Did he somehow "need" creation? If so, then that would make the infinite contingent upon the finite.

I don't think you want to say that God is not omniscient; He hears all of saints prayers on earth all at the same time. Christ knows no limitation as you suggest to us.

I'm not saying that Christ is limited. To say that an unlimited God, in his infinite power, shares his power, glory, and work with his creation, is to uphold the unlimitedness of the deity. It is to show that the deity calls for participation in an act of love among his creation, which is the very purpose for creation itself.

Revelation 5:8 indicates that the 'four beasts' {the four living creatures} and the twenty four elders were merely worshiping Christ and offering to Him {symbolically} the gathered prayers of all the saints who remained on the earth.

And so, what is the theological truth behind this passage? You're, in effect, emptying it of any meaning.

I do not see in this verse anything that hints of the living creatures or the elders interceding to the Lord on behalf of Christians on the earth.

You may not, but I do, and it's quite obvious in my eyes. You may disagree with the interpretation, but I don't see why you must say that you do not see "anything that hints...". There is undoubtedly something that hints!

As I wrote, "We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding."

This explanation has sufficed for numerous other Christians with whom I have dialogued in the past.

They can see the clear, obvious implication. Why can't you?

Christ does not need helpers; that is why we as Christians call Him God.

If Christ doesn't need helpers, then why did he appoint 12 Apostles to carry out his work? Your assumption necessarily precludes about 75% of the New Testament, which describes Christ sharing his work with men.

I like the symbolism of the incense used in the mass when I have visited a Roman Catholic Church. I took it to mean that that it was the prayers of the saints in the congregation offered up to the Lord, but it may suggest that God is so brilliant and glorious that the priest must mask His great Presence in the church. Which do you believe this to suggest?

Incense is a liturgical symbol of prayer. The rising smoke symbolizes the prayers of the saints in the pews, and this symbolism is what makes Rev 5:8 indicative of intercessory prayer among those saints in heaven.

 

I have been trying to enlighten my Calvinist brothers that Luther and Calvin should be taken with a grain of salt, because one does not leave Catholicism and then immediately have all their 'ducks in line.'

The Unitarians of the Reformation would agree with you, Ray. They would continue to debunk the myth of the Triune God ("pluralism within the Godhead, nonsense!"), and we continue to see this among sects today such as Oneness Pentecostals.

And the Enlightenment deistic philosophes (e.g. Voltaire, Diderot, etc.) would go a step further and cleanse Religion from the rest of Catholic myth such as the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.

How far should we go?

 

Someone said, 'Imagine that!! The bible says all meats are suitable and that it is not what goes into our mouths that defile us.'

I Corinthians 8:8 says, 'But meat commendeth us not to God; for neither, if we eat are we the better; neither, if we eat not are we the worse.'

The Papal chair appears to view things different that God Himself. Wasn't it originally the idea that he represents Christ and His views?

 

Hi Brian,

Read all four of the definitions. You do not
and cannot be a "mediator" between me and God, based on the simple definition of the word.

Oh, but I can - in Christ.

You see, I'm not a mediator any more or less than I am a son of God.. any more or less than I am a priest.. any more or less than I am a Christian.

I participate in the work and person of Jesus Christ as mediator. It is because of him, in him, and through his name, that I become a mediator.

The same goes for my priesthood and my divine sonship, and the same applies to all of the saints - both on earth and in heaven.

The theological implications of participation are profound, and this principle is central to Christianity, especially with regard to Christian soteriology.

Consider this article, which was written by Dr. Mark Miravalle, a professor of mine:

***

The definition of "mediator" (in Greek, mesitis - "go-between") is a person who intervenes between two other persons or parties for the goal of uniting or reconciling the parties. Applying this term to Jesus Christ, St. Paul indeed states that there is one mediator between the parties of God and humanity, namely the "man Christ Jesus." No one therefore reaches God the Father except through the one, perfect mediation of Jesus Christ.

But the question still remains, does the one perfect mediation of Jesus Christ prevent or rather provide for others to subordinately participate in the one mediation of Jesus Christ? In other words, does the one exclusive mediation of Christ prevent any creature from participating in that one essential mediation? Or does its divine and human perfection allow others to share in his one mediation in a subordinate and secondary way?

Christian Scripture offers examples similar to this question of mediation where Christians are obliged to participate in something that is also "one," exclusive, and dependent entirely on the person of Jesus Christ.

The one Sonship of Jesus Christ. There is only one true son of God, Jesus Christ, who was begotten from God the Father (1 Jn. 1-4). But all Christians are called to participate in the one true sonship of Jesus Christ by becoming "adopted sons" in Christ (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; 1 Jn. 3:1; Gal. 2:20), as a true sharing in the one sonship of Christ through baptism, which allows adopted sons and daughters to also share in the inheritance of the one Son, that of everlasting life.

Living in the One Christ. All Christians are called to share in the "one life" of Jesus Christ, for grace is to participate in the life and the love of Jesus Christ, and through him in the life and love of the Trinity. Thus, St. Paul teaches, ". . .it is not I, but Christ who lives in me" (Gal. 2:20) and 2 Peter 1:4 calls Christians to become "partakers of the divine nature," to live in the one Christ, and thus in the life of the Trinity.

The one Priesthood of Jesus Christ. All Christians also are called to share in different degrees in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ. The book of Hebrews identifies Jesus Christ as the one "high priest" (cf. Heb. 3:1; 4:14; 5:10) who offers the great spiritual sacrifice of himself on Calvary. And yet Scripture calls all Christians, albeit on different levels of participation, ministerial (cf. Acts 14:22) or royal (cf. 1 Pet. 2:9), to participate in the one priesthood of Jesus Christ in offering "spiritual sacrifice." All Christians are instructed to "offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God" (1 Pet. 2:5, 2:9).

In all these cases, the New Testament calls Christians to share in that which is one and unique to Jesus Christ, the Alpha and Omega, in true though completely subordinate levels of participation. In reference, then, to Christ the one Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5), we see the same Christian imperative for others to share or participate in the one mediation of Jesus Christ, but in a secondary mediation entirely dependent upon the one perfect mediation of Jesus Christ.

The pivotal christological question must then be asked: Does such subordinate sharing in the one mediation of Christ obscure the one mediation of Christ, or rather does it manifest the glory of his one mediation? This is easily answered by imagining a contemporary world without "adopted sons and daughters in Christ," without Christians today sharing in the one life of Jesus Christ in grace, or without any Christians offering spiritual sacrifices in the Christian priesthood. Such an absence of human participation would only result in obscuring the one Sonship, the one High Priesthood, and the very Life of grace in Jesus Christ.

The same principle is true regarding participation in the one mediation of Jesus Christ in a dependent and subordinate way: the more human participation in the one mediation of Christ, the more the perfection, power, and glory of the unique and necessary mediation of Jesus Christ is manifested to the world.

Christian Scripture moreover offers several examples of God-instituted human mediators who cooperated by divine initiative in uniting humanity with God. The great prophets of the Old Testament were God-ordained mediators between Yahweh and the people of Israel, oftentimes seeking to return the people of Israel to their fidelity to Yahweh (cf. Is. 1; Jer. 1; Ez. 2). The Old Testament patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses, etc., were at God's initiative the human mediators of the saving covenant between Yahweh and the people of Israel (cf. Gen. 12:2; 15:18; Ex. 17:11). St. Paul identifies Moses' mediation of the law to the Israelites: "Why then the law? It was ordained by God through an intermediary" (Gal. 3:19-20). And the angels, with hundreds of mediating acts spanning Old and New Testaments, are God's messengers, who mediate for reconciliation between God and the human family, both before and after the coming of Christ, the one Mediator (cf. Gen. 3:24; Lk. 1:26; Lk. 1:19).

Regarding Mary, Christian Scripture also clearly reveals the secondary and subordinate participation of the Mother of Jesus in the one mediation of Jesus Christ. At the Annunciation, Mary's free and active "yes" to the invitation of the angel mediates to the world Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of the world and the Author of all graces (cf. Lk. 1:38). For this unique participation in giving to the Redeemer his body and mediating the Source of all graces to the world, Mary can rightly be called both "Co-redemptrix" and "Mediatrix of all graces" as one who uniquely shares in the one mediation of Jesus Christ.

This unique Marian participation in Christ's mediation, specific to the Redemption of Jesus Christ, is climaxed at Calvary. At the cross, her spiritual suffering united to the redemptive sacrifice of her Son, as the New Eve with the New Adam, leads to the universal spiritual fruits of the acquisition of the graces of redemption, which, in turn, leads to the gift of spiritual motherhood from the heart of the Crucified Christ to every human heart: "Behold your mother!" (Jn. 19:27). The Redeemer's gift of his own mother as spiritual mother to all humanity leads to the spiritual nourishment by the Mother to her children in the order of grace. This constitutes the distribution of the graces of Calvary by Mary to her spiritual children as Mediatrix of all graces, which perpetually continues her unique sharing in the one saving mediation of Jesus Christ.

John Paul II explains the Catholic understanding of this unique Marian participation in the one mediation of Jesus Christ:

Mary entered, in a way all her own, into the one mediation "between God and men" which is the mediation of the man Christ Jesus.... We must say that through this fullness of grace and supernatural life, she was especially predisposed to cooperation with Christ, the one Mediator of human salvation. And such cooperation is precisely this mediation subordinated to the mediation of Christ. In Mary's case we have a special and exceptional mediation. [22]

And in his commentary on 1 Timothy 2:5 and Mary's maternal mediation, John Paul II further states:

We recall that Mary's mediation is essentially defined by her divine motherhood. Recognition of her role as mediatrix is moreover implicit in the expression "our Mother," which presents the doctrine of Marian mediation by putting the accent on her motherhood.... In proclaiming Christ the one mediator (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5-6), the text of St. Paul's Letter to Timothy excludes any other parallel mediation, but not subordinate mediation. In fact, before emphasizing the one exclusive mediation of Christ, the author urges "that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men" (2:1). Are not prayers a form of mediation? Indeed, according to St. Paul, the unique mediation of Christ is meant to encourage other dependent, ministerial forms of mediation.... In truth, what is Mary's maternal mediation if not the Father's gift to humanity? [23]

Therefore we can see Mary's participation in the one mediation of Jesus Christ as unique and unparalleled by any other human or angelic participation, and yet entirely subordinate and dependent upon the one mediation of Jesus Christ. As such, Mary's motherly mediation manifests the true glory and power of Christ's mediation as no other. The Marian titles and roles of Co-redemptrix and Mediatrix of all graces (and Advocate as well) do not in any way violate the prohibition of 1 Tim. 2:5 against any parallel, autonomous, or rival mediation, but bespeak a unique and exceptional motherly participation in that one, perfect, and saving mediation of Jesus Christ.

In the words of Anglican Oxford scholar, Dr. John Macquarrie:

The matter [of Marian mediation] cannot be settled by pointing to the danger of exaggeration and abuse, or by appealing to isolated texts of scripture as the verse quoted above from 1 Timothy 2:5 or by the desire not to say anything that might offend one's partners in ecumenical dialogue. Unthinking enthusiasts may have elevated Mary's position to a virtual equality with Christ, but this aberration is not a necessary consequence of recognizing that there may be a truth striving for expression in words like Mediatrix and Co-redemptrix.

All responsible theologians would agree that Mary's co-redemptive role is subordinate and auxiliary to the central role of Christ. But if she does have such a role, the more clearly we understand it, the better. And like other doctrines concerning Mary, it is not only saying something about her, but something more general about the Church as a whole, and even humanity as a whole. [24]
_

22. John Paul II, Redemptoris Mater, 21, 39.

23. John Paul II, Papal Address, Rome, October 1, 1997, L'Osservatore Romano,
1997, 41.

24. J. Macquarrie, "Mary Co-redemptrix and Disputes over Justification and Grace"
in Mary Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate, Theological Foundations II, p.246.
Copyright © 2001 Queenship Publishing - All Rights Reserved.

 

Ray, it isn't about what you eat or don't eat. It's about fasting and discipling yourself to strengthen your spirit.

As a child I fasted from candy during Lent.

Do you see fasting as something Biblical?

Ron

 

I Corinthians 8:8 says, 'But meat commendeth us not to God; for neither, if we eat are we the better; neither, if we eat not are we the worse.' The Papal chair appears to view things different that God Himself. Wasn't it originally the idea that he represents Christ and His views?

Ray, be careful not to mix topics. Paul is speaking about a specific controversy: whether eating meat offered to idols is a sin.

The Christian penitential practice of fasting is both affirmed and deepened by Jesus Christ in his Sermon on the Mount (see Matthew 5-7). Abstaining from meat on one day as a Church is a communal form of fasting, and this practice is quite separated from what Paul is addressing in 1 Corinthians.

To the Biblically ignorant and quick-to-judge, your argument is tempting, but it's really useless because it extrapolates a false assumption from a text wrenched from its context. And a text considered apart from its context is a pretext.

 

Carson Weber said, 'Incense is a liturgical symbol of prayer. The rising smoke symbolizes the prayers of the saints in the pews, and this symbolism is what makes Rev. 5:8 indicative of intercessory prayer among those saints in heaven.'

Ray said, I tend to agree with you and that is because of Luke 1:8-9. The only difference that we have is that John in Revelation 5:8 presents golden bowls/saucers, as Dr. A.T. Robertson, the Greek scholar suggests. "Word Pictures of the New Testament" Volume 6, page 335. He believes that the bowls offered to Christ are the prayers of the saints coming from the earth to His throne. [Luke 1:10] In a word picture John is portraying the fact that our prayers to God do really matter for mega reasons. I am sure that I still do not understand all the ramifications of true and fervent prayer to God. [James 5:16 b,c, d]

We do not believe that there was intercessory prayer among the saints in Heaven, but rather that they {the four living creatures & the twenty-four elders} were merely presenting {in a word picture sense} the prayers of God's people on earth to Jesus Christ. They were the presenters but not mediators or intercessors.

If you remember, the Apostle Paul said in Romans 8:27 that the Holy Spirit Himself makes the intercession to God without Heavenly helpers like 'living creatures' or the twenty-four elders.' The New Century Versions offers this. ' . . . the Spirit Himself helps us with our weakness. We do not knowhow to pray as we should. But, the Spirit Himself speaks to God for us, even begs God for us with deep feelings that words cannot explain. God can see what is in people's hearts. And He knows what is in the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit speaks to God for His people in the way God wants.' There are no Heavenly beings or saints including Mary hinted at here, and if they were involved He surely would have at least foot-noted their value.

 

" Luther and Calvin should be taken with a grain of salt, "

Amen to that!

 

I am glad, as brothers in the faith, that we both agree about things like: the Trinity, the virgin birth of Jesus through Mary, the Incarnation, and the inspiration of the Scripture, and we deplore the concept of universalism as to salvation.

Ray

 

Hi Ray,

They were the presenters but not mediators or intercessors.

What is the good of having a presenter of our prayers before God if God - who is omniscient - directly hears our prayers when we speak to him here on earth?

 

Ron,

I do not diminish the importance of fasting; it is Biblical and spiritual. I believe it get us to focus more on the things of God because we offer this time to Him for our spiritual evaluation.

Ray

 

Carson Weber,

The Apostle John in Revelation 5:8 was trying to have his readers understand that God does hear all of our prayers and that they are important to us and to Christ. We have relationship to Christ through faith and we have fellowship with the Lord through reading His Word and through our prayers to Him.

 

I do not diminish the importance of fasting; it is Biblical and spiritual. I believe it get us to focus more on the things of God because we offer this time to Him for our spiritual evaluation.

And in the Catholic realm, we have leaders who decide, "As a church, we are going to fast together on this day from this food."

This is, in essence, what you are objecting to: communal fasting.

"Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you" (Heb 13:17).

 

Hi Ray,

The Apostle John in Revelation 5:8 was trying to have his readers understand that God does hear all of our prayers and that they are important to us and to Christ.

Well, in my humble opinion, I believe that your particular translation is a watering down of the passage.

I see John as presenting the heavenly liturgy using liturgical symbolism from the Jerusalem Temple, and that the symbolism indicates the intercession of our brothers and sisters in heaven before the eternal throne of the lamb.

Of course, in the end, it is your interpretation versus mine, and you cannot say that the intercession of the saints in heaven is not Scripturally based - because I have just shown you its Scriptural basis from a Catholic point of view.

 

THere is no case in scripture - not even in Rev 5 where prayers are being addressed to "anyone" but God.

This is one of the trials that Catholicism has to bear - no promotion at all in scripture - of prayers to the dead - or prayers to anyone in heaven but God.

And so they settle for incense being offered TO GOD as though this represents prayers TO someone Else.

How difficult that task is for our RC bretheren. Is there any way to encourage them in finding a solution outside of their traditions?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I read the article by Dr. Mark Miravalle. He had some good things to say but where he inhales error is by stretching or opening the flood gate of one Mediatorship of Jesus Christ into almost any Christian. This, of course, is applied cleverly and shrewdly and opens the 'back door' to include Mary as co-redemptrix.

If he would have dropped in the correct word, ambassadors, into the slot where he insists on more than one Redeemer, the good doctor of the church, would have been well within the confines of Biblical truth. While priest, ministers, and Christian lay persons are not mediators, they are in fact, ambassadors for Christ. [II Cor. 5:20] The Apostle Paul, me and you and the Old Testament prophets were representatives of God, being sent by Him to proclaim His truth, but never as mediators. Think about it can any of us do a better ministry than Jesus Himself? The Apostle Paul in the passage above does include himself as a spokesperson for the Gospel to the Gentiles especially, but notice his wording. He was not a mediator but rather says, 'We are ambassadors for Christ . . . '

I have the power as a Christian minister to present the Gospel in preaching or witnessing to a sinner, but have no mediatoral clout in saving that soul from Hell. Only Jesus Christ saves people from their sins! [Matthew 1:21] Notice St. Matthew did not say, 'Jesus and Mary will save His people from their sins.' What He in fact did say was, 'And she shall bring forth a son, and Thou shalt call His Name Jesus; for He shall save His people from their sins. What I am saying, kindly is, that anyone who thinks they are going to arrive in Heaven because of Mary's mediation will never make it into the felicity of Heaven.

Jesus will share His glory with no other human, whether a minister, priest or layperson. He alone died on the Cross for sinners. [John 3:16; John 14:6 e; Acts 2:21; Acts 16:31; Romans 5:1; I Corinthians 3:11; I Timothy 2:5]

Yes, we are the sons and daughters of the living God, [I John 3:2] but we can never speak of Mary or ourselves as mediators. Yes, we are ambassadors for Christ. [II Cor. 5:20]

Also, the tiny word, {heis or hice} in the Greek means one. I Timothy 2:5 says under the watchful eys of Jesus Himself, 'For there is {heis} God, and {heis} Mediator between God and humankind, the man Christ Jesus.' This kind of limits who can bring spiritual cleansing from sins.

 

You have read me incorrectly. I have no problem with your communal fasting, but wondered why the present Pope vacillated from the old law of the church to not eat meat on Friday. It had been vogue so long even we Protestants understood this to be a ruling that probably would never change. We were kind of taken back in our seats by this change in administrative decision. It really never made a difference to our way of thinking.

 

Catholics worldwide are still required to abstain from meat on Fridays, ALTHOUGH it is left up to the discression of the Bishops. The Bishops in the US still require abstainance of meat on Fridays in lent, but another form of penance on other Fridays, which is up to the individual to decide for himself.

God bless,

Grant

 

Hi Ray,

I have no problem with your communal fasting, but wondered why the present Pope vacillated from the old law of the church to not eat meat on Friday.

This was changed in the 1983 code of canon law at the request of African and Asian bishops.

The laity in particular regions of Africa and Asia usually never eat meat because it is unavailable or extremely expensive, so they were unable to partake in the universal Church's penitential practice in this regard.

We are still required by the positive law of the Church to abstain from meat on Friday - this hasn't changed. What has changed is that episcopal conferences have been given the authority to allow for alternate forms of penance in lieu of abstaining from meat so that the entire Church universal can fast as one body.