Who Follows Apollos?

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Bible Study on Closed communion

 

“ To employ soft words and honeyed phrases in discussing questions of everlasting
importance: to deal with errors that strike at the foundations of all human hope as if they
were harmless and venial mistakes; to bless where God disapproves, and to make
apologies where He calls us to stand up like men and assert, though it may be the aptest
method of securing popular applause in a sophisticated age, is cruelty to man and
treachery to Heaven. Those who on such subjects attach more importance to the rules of
courtesy than they do to the measures of truth do not defend the citadel, but betray it into
the hands of its enemies. Love for Christ, and for the souls for whom He died, will be the
exact measure of our zeal in exposing the dangers by which men’s souls are ensnared.

- Thornwell

 

Tuor, I will address your questions, but hope you will address the Scripture I have already presented on the topic at hand.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
If you are going to claim lineage all the way back to Paul, I would think it would have to be a perfect lineage. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The body of faith is perfect. Jesus Himself says his church is the pillar and foundation of truth. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> From what I have seen of Catholic History, the Catholic Church is far from perfect. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> People are not perfect. The Catholic Church does not claim the Pope is perfect and no one claims the Pope is impeccable. The Holy Spirit protects the Church from making errors and matters of teachings on faith and morals.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And I don't buy into the passing on of the authority to another person. This is not Biblical. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It sure is. Jesus left His keys and the charge to feed my sheep, and the charge to teach. He also promised to send the Holy Spirit to lead the church. He left His authority. His authority was not to die out with the Apostles, but was left with His church.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>To say that the Pope has a perfect revelation is making a leap of faith. Why he wasn't perfect until men voted him perfect is totally beyond me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have come up with this claim all by yourself. The Pope in the office of Pope is protected by the Holy Spirit from teaching error on matters of faith and morals. Jesus promised his church to be the pillar and foundation of truth. He didn’t lie.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If praying to dead saints was right, then why didn't Paul pray to Stephen? The pantheon of Saints reminds me way too much of pagan practices world wide. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Paul may have asked for St. Stephens prayers. Not everything St. Paul did is contained in Holy Scripture. As the body of Christ we are all one. We are to pray for one another.

St. Paul says,
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who led you, who spoke the word of God to you; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith. Why don’t you read about some of these people and how they lived their faith and considering their conduct, imitate their faith? This is what St. Paul recommends, and what Catholics practice.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think I've gone on enough. Right now those are some of my major questions about Catholism. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tuor: All your questions can be new threads, but I would like to hear how you deal with the Scripture I have given you about the claim you have made. Why don’t you consider what Scripture says here and tell us what church this fits? What church or churches considers the life people are living or have lived and teaches its members to follow the example of those who lead them to Christ? This is what Scripture teaches.

Those statues of saints that remind you of paganism, are reminders of the martyrs who have died for their faith, just like St. Stephen. Scripture teaches us to use our fathers in faith as examples for our own faith.

How do you deal with these teaching in Scripture that I presented in my above posts?
I am trying to keep this on topic.

God Bless

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Tuor: Why don’t we look at the passage you presented in context.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.
I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able,
for you are still fleshly. For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?
For when one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not mere men?

What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one.

I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.
So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 1 Corinthians 3:1-9
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point Paul is making is spelled out beforehand in 1 Cor 1:10 It is for the Corinthians to stop the dissention. There is not to be factions, but for all to be in agreement in what they profess. (1 cor 1:10) St. Paul goes on to explain that He did the planting and Apollo did the watering and they are both one in Christ. "It is all one who does the planting and the watering." We are all one in the Lord. He is teaching unity of the Body of Christ. He is teaching all belong to the body of Christ, all belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God. St. Paul concludes here with:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. For this reason I have sent to you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ, just as I teach everywhere in every church. Now some have become arrogant, as though I were not coming to you.
But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out, not the words of those who are arrogant but their power. For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power. What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness? 1 Cor 4:14-21 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
St. Paul is hardly saying here not to follow him. He even calls himself the Corinthian's father in Christ Jesus. He became their father through the gospel he preached to them. Over all, this whole discussion is about unity and not having factions and how everything is through Christ Jesus, even St. Paul's authority as their father in faith. St. Paul is admonishing them with his God given authority. He tells them he is sending Timothy, "who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, and he will remind you of my ways which are in Christ".

Scripture is telling us to look to the people who are our fathers in faith in Christ Jesus. We are to be reminded of those who have led us to Christ and imitate them because we are all one in the Lord. If we do this there will not be fighting factions within the body of Christ.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.1 Corinthians 1:10 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This was the purpose of the statement about those claiming I am of Apollo, and I am of Paul... that Jesus Christ is not divided. They all are one in Christ.

No divisions, and being perfectly joined together of the same mind, and in the same judgment seems to be very important to St. Paul here in 1 Corinthians. Maybe we can discuss what St. Paul meant by what he was telling the Corinthians. If you disagree with me here, I would like to hear your thoughts on why. I don't think we can address your original post without going to Scripture itself and see what St. Paul is really talking about.

God Bless

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Sir Ed,
Let us all know when the celebratory event takes place and we'll all raise a glass of.....er....uh....now what was it that Jesus drank again? Well, make mine red and let the baptists drink their welches.
In any case, congrads and may God bless you and your wife with this new life.
Irish Pete

 

Sir Ed,
What wonderful news about your son's birth.
Congratulations. You and yours will be in our prayers.

Pauline

 

Tuor,
If you traced your family from yourself back to your great grandfather -- would there be a definite line there -- with names and dates? Yes, there would be. But would they all be perfect human beings, without any faults or sins? Of course not. Would the fact that your ancestors commited sins mean that your family line didn't exist?

Catholics can trace their line back from Pope John Paul II to Peter. You can see that list on-line or at your public library. Does the fact that the line is there mean nary a pope had a sin or fault? No. Popes are human beings, sinners, just like all of us. Why would the fact that popes have sinned mean that there cannot be a true line of popes? That's not a logical assertion -- you're mixing two totally different subjects together in order to try to show the fallacy of one of them.

You think the exclusion of "orthodox" Christians from communion is unbiblical. I'm curious -- how do you define "orthodox"? Do you think there is such a thing as truth in this world? Do you think God is truth? Can truth contradict itself and change from one teaching to a very different, opposite one?
If there is one God, one body of truth and all truths taught by God's people must agree and support one another -- then communion must reflect this. And only Christians who agree in God's truth should receive communion together. (We could go on from there and debate which church has the fullness of the Faith -- but that's for another thread.)

The problem is that you disagree with the Catholics, and evidently with the Lutherans, on what truth is. So why should you be allowed to receive communion in their churches? Communion is our sign of unity, not of compromise. If you want to receive communion with a church, you should study the doctrines and find the church that you agree with doctrinally.

The pantheon of saints reminds you of pagan practices?? Could you explain exactly how it does that? You don't value and honor Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses...? You don't honor that cloud of witnesses spoken of in Hb 12,1? And you don't care about those grand martyrs of the Faith who went willingly to death by being fed to the lions or to be burned to death or had their heads cut off? Are you cut off from all other generations of Christians then? You have my deepest, heart-felt sympathy. What riches of the Faith you are missing.

Pauline

 

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why is important that everyone attending the same Church believe the same things? I'm not talking about what is sinful, but things like eternal security. It doesn't affect how we live. It doesn't affect how we treat others. All it is something people argue about! If it is true, then some people will be right and some will be wrong. If it is false the same is true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Getting back to the topic, context is everything in the passage about Apollo you present here. Your passage about I belong to Apollo, or I belong to Paul, or I belong to Cephas, are about unity in Christ. This first four chapters of 1 Corinthians is all about unity of belief, not to be bickering, the need to not have factions. "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" 1 Corinthians 1-10

St. Paul doesn’t tell them not to worry about their differences. He tells them not to have differences of belief. This is very important.

St. Paul is not telling the Corinthians not to follow him either. He says quite the contrary in the passages I have presented to you. He is also not saying that what they teach and believe is not important... just follow Jesus Christ. He is saying they must have this unity to be one in Christ. “Is Christ divided?” 1Cor 1-13 Your case of just following Jesus Christ and not being concerned about doctine within the church is not supported here in Holy Scripture.

God Bless

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Tuor:
Scripture is much more strict about unity than you seem to be.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" 1 Corinthians 1-10 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe many people of different denominations are Christians. I have no doubt that you are Christian. The body of Christ is all who belong to Him and are doing the will of the Father. The will of God is that His body is not to be divided. This is what Jesus himself prayed for.

Scripture teaches however that this unity is not achieved by not being concerned about what is taught. Scripture says to baptize and teach people to observe all that I have commanded, Matt 28:19-20 but all these different denominations are teaching different things. This is wrong. Those who say it isn't wrong, have to ignore a lot of Holy Scripture about what the body of Christ is.

God Bless

 

Tuor,
Did you read 1 Cor 11, 27-29?

What does it mean to you to discern the Lord's body?

Sir Ed and/or Godmetal,

What does it mean to you to discern the Lord's body according to those verses."

Disciple,

What to you?

Pauline

 

Discerning the Body of Christ. How to answer this one, hmmm. Depends on what angle you are coming from. I believe through the Word and physical elements I as faithful believer recieve the True Body and True Blood of Christ that is present with the physical elements of the bread and wine as free gift from God. For the forgiveness of sins and the strengthening and perserving of my faith. Until the day that I am called home and can join in the Marriage feast of the Lamb.

Also because of the corporate nature of the Lord's Supper we practiced close(d) communion. Because we believe that since it is also a public confession of faith how can somebody who does not believe similarly communion with us and how can we allow somebody who does not believe similarly to communion with us if it is to be to their detremint.

 

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 11:19
No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
Evidently Paul thought there had to be some divdions within the Church. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is not talking about differences in doctrine and how these differences are not important. It is speaking of those who are contentious. St. Paul says he does not praise this because these people are coming together not for the better, but for the worse. This is the chaff and the wheat. This leads into the whole matter of examining ourselves before sharing in the Lord’s supper.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 11:16
But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

1 Corinthians 11:17
But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.

1 Corinthians 11:18
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.

1 Corinthians 11:19
For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What St. Paul is saying here does not change what he said earlier in the same letter about:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" 1 Corinthians 1-10 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Once again St. Paul says here starting out this chapter:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Corinthians 11:1
Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He is saying in this chapter there will always be trouble makers, but there is one truth. Here take me as your model. He is not saying that it doesn’t matter what doctrines are taught. He is speaking of this passing down of this body of teaching, this one faith. ( 1 Cor 11-2) By following him and what he is teaching them, the Corinthians are to be of one mind and speak the same things. 1 Cor 1-10 This is the unity of the body of Christ that Jesus prayed for.

God Bless

[ January 13, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]