Who Follows Apollos?

Have you read the links I provided? Until then I will wait to respond.

 

Disciple,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I ask you the same thing I asked Godmetal.
Is someone who's belief good enough for God to find righteous not good enough to worship with and take the Lord's Supper with?
Why do denominations have more stringent requirements than God? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
God’s judgement of who is righteous is unknown to us. Anyone who wants to can worship with me and come to Mass at my church or any Catholic Church. As far as Holy Communion this is sharing in the body of Christ and sharing in the blood of Christ. It means we are one mind and one body with Christ and each other. This includes the saints in heaven. We share the same beliefs of what we are sharing in. For Catholics we are sharing in the real body and blood of Jesus Christ.

In this web site I have been told that in Communion nothing is shared with God. Most here don’t believe that Jesus really meant we are sharing his body and blood. I have come across people who believe they are Christians but don’t feel the need to even be baptized. I could go on and on how we are not united in one mind and one body. That sadly is why we are separated brethren with other Christians.

It is not a matter of this person not being “good enough” to take the Lord’s Supper with them. They may be very much loved and belong to Jesus Christ. This is the tragedy of the separations and the denominations. It isn’t that those Christians are judged to be loved any less by God, or will not have as good a place in heaven, it is that we don’t share the union that Holy Communion is. Look at the word Communion. It is all about this union with each other, and Jesus Christ. If the union is not there, we can’t just pretend it doesn’t matter. It does matter.

My question for you is why would anyone want to share Holy Communion in a church they did not have any union of belief with? If they believe in the same things as I believe about my Communion.... that it is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, and we share in His body and share in His blood, then why would they not become a Catholic and receive the Lord this way every day of the week?

God Bless

 

"This is not talking about differences in doctrine and how these differences are not important. It is speaking of those who are contentious. St. Paul says he does not praise this because these people are coming together not for the better, but for the worse. This is the chaff and the wheat. This leads into the whole matter of examining ourselves before sharing in the Lord's supper." (Pauline)

1Cor.11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you."
Tuor is right, Pauline. The word "heresies" should rightly be translated divisions or contentions. It was not referring to doctrinal error in specific, but Paul was referring to differences of opinion. He is saying here that there must be divisions, differences of opinions, among you. This is an encouragement of freedom of speech. It was necessary for them to fellowship together, and talk about the Bible, and discuss their differences. Why? "That they which are approved may be made manifest among you." In other words the cream would rise to the top. But contrariwise, it was also necessary in order that those holding false doctrine might be found out. If they never discussed doctrine how would they know who held it. Look at 1 Cor. 15. There were some that denied the very resurrection of Christ. They knew it because they were open and free enough to discuss their own beliefs. "There must be also heresies (divisions, differences, etc.) among you."
DHK

 

Tuor and DHK,
I think you are not seeing the mind set of the early Christians that there had to be unity of doctrine. I know that goes against your beliefs. But with them, there was one body of truth (doctrine) and every Christian was required to hold to it or was dropped from fellowship. This is foundational to understanding their practice for communion.

Second John is all about doctrine (truth) and it is clear that Christians had to hold to that body of Christian doctrine.

We are probably at a major difference between your view and our Catholic view. To Catholics, one has to abide in the truth, stay in it and hold to it. And to receive communion is one's declaration, "I abide in unity with the truth taught by the Catholic Church." For us, its all one package and each of us has to accept and abide in that one package: belief and practice fit together. Tuor, you could not make that declaration at this time in your life. Maybe never. That is why it astounds us that you even would want to receive communion in our churches.

I disagree that the Catholic and the Lutheran churches have a more rigorous standard than God. God Himself calls us to hold to the body of truth He has given us by revelation. One of the worst things that Christians can do is to get lax about doctrine. A Protestant woman invited me to a womens' meeting. I asked, "What doctrines will you be teaching." She replied, "We won't be teaching doctrine." What silliness.
Christians cannot even get together without doctrine entering into the gathering. The question then in any Christian gathering should be: Is our doctrine true doctrine? For scripture teaches there is false doctrine and even doctrines of demons. That is why it is essential for us to continually seek more and more understanding of God's truth.

What we believe (doctrine) and what we pray and how we live (morals) are all one. If we separate or dilute doctrinal truth, we become worldly. I see a real turning to the ways of the world among many Christians today. One man told me about going to a big Promise Keepers meeting. He enthused that they all worshipped together: Protestants,
Catholics and Mormons. He didn't even have the discernment to know the difference between Christians and non-Christians gathering for worship. When our pope meets with people of other Christian churches and non-Christian religions, he does discern that difference and the meetings are organized to reflect those differences and the fact that they cannot all worship together. We can meet. We can talk. We cannot worship together because we are not in union in doctrine. And to receive communion is the highest form of communal worship.

Pauline

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

Tuor:
Like I have said earlier anyone who claims unity of belief doesn’t matter has to ignore much of Holy Scripture. Here are just a few passages.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 1 Corinthians 10:17
SINCE THERE IS ONE BREAD, WE WHO ARE MANY ARE ONE BODY; FOR WE ALL PARTAKE OF THE ONE BREAD.

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a SHARING IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? Is not the bread which we break a SHARING IN THE BODY OF CHRIST?

Romans 12:5
so WE, WHO ARE MANY, ARE ONE BODY IN CHRIST, AND INDIVIDUALLY MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you believe you are members one of another when you take this one bread? Scripture Romans 12:5 says so. Jesus is the bread of life. We are all one with Jesus Christ when we share in the blood of Christ and share in the body of Christ. 1 Cor 10:16 Philippians 1:27

As far as being of one mind, anyone who says this doesn’t matter has to ignore the Word of God.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are STANDING FIRM IN ONE SPIRIT, WITH ONE MIND STRIVING TOGETHER FOR THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL;

Acts 15:25
it seemed good to us, HAVING BECOME OF ONE MIND, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

Acts 2:46
Day by day continuing with ONE MIND in the temple, and BREAKING BREAD from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most non-Catholics haven’t considered what the body of Christ is and how they belong to His body and how they are one with each other in Christ when they share the Holy Eucharist. For most non-Catholics their faith is very much a just “me and Jesus” faith. This is incomplete. They don’t understand what the body of Christ is. This unity in the body of Christ is taught by Jesus throughout the gospel and the whole New Testament. It is this unity that Jesus prayed for in John 17. Through the Eucharist we have this unity. "We WHO ARE MANY, ARE ONE BODY IN CHRIST, AND INDIVIDUALLY MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER." Romans 12:5

God Bless

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

Tuor,
Discerning the Lord's body means recognizing that Eucharist (communion) brings us the Body and Blood of our Lord to nourish that share in His life that He gave us at baptism. You have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior. You do not discern the Lord's body in communion because you don't believe it is His Body and Blood.

You know, I am not saying these things to put you down. Nor to be mean. I am simply stating facts in how you disagree with us about communion. Please try not to be offended nor to think that anyone is saying you are not Christian. We aren't saying that. If you have believed on Jesus Christ by being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, you are a Christian.

But, like so many things in the word of God, there is another level to discerning the Lord's body. And that is to discern that we Christians really are His body. That He lives in and through us here on earth as we remain in union with Him. That He uses us to do His work on earth. That all Christians are called to be one in Him Who is Truth. We are not our own, with a price we've been bought.

Truth cannot contradict itself, it cannot change. It is one. Every doctrine in it has to agree with and support the others. In the Catholic Church, we make a commitment to discern the Lord's body doctrinally, morally and in our prayers (liturgy). We are called to the oneness that Jesus Christ has with the Father. That was His great prayer in John 17,20-23. That is what God expects of us Christians. And we are failing to be what He calls us to be. You see from these posts, you and DHK don't even believe in that type of oneness.

Until we Christians come to that oneness, we cannot receive communion together. We can pray for one another, we can communicate about doctrinal truth (as we are doing) and about moral truth. But we cannot receive the Lord's body together when one of us doesn't even believe it is the Lord's body.

Godmetal is closer to us in doctrine. He does believe communion gives the real Body and Blood of Christ, but consubstantiated rather than transubstantiated. So we recognize there are some real problems in our beliefs and practices. And that we cannot receive communion together unless those differences are resolved so that Catholics and Lutherans really become one in Christ Jesus.

But we aren't putting one another down because of that. We just continue to pray for one another and to seek God and His truth. We are brothers and sisters in the Lord, albeit separated brothers and sisters because of our contradictory beliefs and practices.

Pauline

 

Tuor,

keep fighting the good fight, brother; your posts are filled with the truth. But don't expect to make much headway with RC adherents--it's hard to do so with those who are willfully deluded.

 

I should have said "some" RC adherents.

 

This is just a couple of verses from Jesus' prayer to the Father for us:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. John 17:11

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; John 17:22

I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. John 17:23
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

God Bless

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

There is another aspect to this: See if I am correct in my conclusions here:

Baptists believe Jesus Christ had a actual and visible body, which could be seen and touched, while He walked and talked on earth, and which now is risen and glorified in heaven. But Baptists believe communion (Body of Christ) is only spiritual, not an actual receiving of the Body and Blood of Jesus. And Baptists believe the Church (Body of Christ) is only spiritual, not actual). They believe there is no one visible, instituted-by-Christ Church on earth. Am I correct about the Baptist stand on these things?

I'm not certain Tuor, where your beliefs fit into this.

Lutherans believe Jesus Christ had an actual body while on earth (risen and glorified in heaven). And that communion is His actual Body, probably they believe as we do that it is His glorified, risen body.

But, Godmetal, despite the fact that you have the Lutheran Church, don't you believe the Church is spiritual and not Christ's actual body on earth which He lives and works and suffers through now?

Catholics believe that Jesus Christ had an actual body while on earth and still has it in heaven (risen and glorified). And that in communion He gives us His actual risen and glorified Body just as He said, "This is my Body", under the appearance of bread and wine. And that the Church is His actual and visible body, in which He lives, through which He works and suffers now.

Do you see the continuity, the oneness, of the Catholic postition in contrast to that of non-Catholic Christians. Is there a non-Catholic Christians group that holds to this continuity of Christ's work among and with humans? And, do you see how if the Catholic position on this is the true position -- then we have to be one in doctrine, in morals and in our prayers (liturgy)? If this is actually our Lord Jesus in communion and in the Church, He cannot be divided. If it is actually Him in communion and in the Church, then we are not allowed to have differences in any of the essentials. And two essentials are: Is communion really the Body and Blood of Christ? Is the Church actually His body through which He is living and working.

Pauline

 

Tuor:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I think that those who take communion should have unity too. The unity I believe all who take communion should have is unity in Christ, being a Christian. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Like I have said earlier your idea of unity does not go as far as Holy Scripture. God tells us what His idea of unity is, but you ignore all the Scripture that shows this.

"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" 1 Corinthians 1-10

Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ. 1 Corinthians 11:1

SINCE THERE IS ONE BREAD, WE WHO ARE MANY ARE ONE BODY; FOR WE ALL PARTAKE OF THE ONE BREAD. 1 Corinthians 10:17

1 Corinthians 10:16
Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a SHARING IN THE BLOOD OF CHRIST? Is not the bread which we break a SHARING IN THE BODY OF CHRIST?

Romans 12:5
so WE, WHO ARE MANY, ARE ONE BODY IN CHRIST, AND INDIVIDUALLY MEMBERS ONE OF ANOTHER.

"I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. John 17:11

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; John 17:22

I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. John 17:23

Only conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or remain absent, I will hear of you that you are STANDING FIRM IN ONE SPIRIT, WITH ONE MIND STRIVING TOGETHER FOR THE FAITH OF THE GOSPEL;
Acts 15:25

it seemed good to us, HAVING BECOME OF ONE MIND, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Acts 2:46

Day by day continuing with ONE MIND in the temple, and BREAKING BREAD from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart,

Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 1 Corinthians 11:2

You ask:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Are you going to put your trust in the Bible or the tradition of man? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you deal with all the Scripture I have presented? The only tradition presented here is the tradition that St. Paul says to hold firmly to. You have ignored every verse. Jesus Christ taught unity not diversity of belief. Your one verse about contentious people who don’t belong to God, doesn’t contradict the teaching of unity in the body of Christ…this one mind, one bread, one body.

When Catholics celebrate and proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes, we share in his body and share in his blood. We are one because this is what Jesus did for us and tells us to do and this is what the gospel teaches. He is the bread of life. The whole gospel is taken into account.

You don’t even acknowledge that there should be unity among the body of Christ. What was Jesus praying about in John 17? Scripture teaches Christ is not divided. You appear to be arguing diversity of belief is OK, but can only support it with a verse about contentious people who don’t belong to Christ being in the church. How about all the scripture I have presented? You don’t deal with it. You tell me your ideas of what this unity is to you, but this isn’t what scripture teaches. Scripture doesn't teach a "just me and Jesus" unity.

The word of God has to be ignored to continue to argue that Jesus did not teach the unity of the body of Christ. Why don’t you look at the verses above again, and read them in context in your own bible.

God Bless

[ January 14, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But, Godmetal, despite the fact that you have the Lutheran Church, don't you believe the Church is spiritual and not Christ's actual body on earth which He lives and works and suffers through now?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pauline I am not sure what you are getting at, plz elaborate.

 

Tuor, I don't even understand why you are offended, because I don't even understand why you would want to communion with us. We believe that we are one in Christ and share in the one body in communion. We believe that by faith we are recieving the True Body and True Blood (True Presence, but not in rcc sense). We confess this belief publicly. So if you were to join us in the Lord's Supper, not believing as we do would make you a hypocrit. Personally I think you should be happy that we are trying to prevent you from sinning (by being a hypocrit)

 

Tuor,
You are trying to make the part about the Lord's death the whole story in receiving communion. You aren't dealing with the part about discerning the Lord's body. Yet Paul places emphasis on that as an essential. Nor are you dealing with our Lord's own words, "This is my body." A very straight-forward, literal statement. To a Catholic, and to a Lutheran too, I think, your theology on communion is faulty. You don't discern that this is indeed the Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Read 1 Cor 11,29. It would be uncharitable to allow a person who doesn't discern that this is the Body and Blood of Christ to receive communion in our churches.

Godmetal,
Let me re-phrase my question: Do Lutherans believe there is one visible Church on earth that was instituted by Jesus Christ? The one Church refered to in Mt 18,17 that all Christians should go to in order to get their differences settled and whose final decisions they should accept. The one that according to 1 Tm 3,15 is the pillar and ground of truth so that when a Christian wants to know the truth for sure, he can go to that Church to find out what the truth is.
If so, then, is this the Lutheran church? But that can't be, because Luther didn't come along until the 1500s.

Therefore, I am thinking you must believe in an invisible worldwide church made up of all believers but not having any visible head or package of dogmas, or set of morals, or set prayers. This is a spiritual church but not an actual church that people can identify and go to for one set Christian package of teaching. Am I correct in my thinking on this?

Pauline

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Pauline ]

 

Tuor: you say you agree with what all the quotes say about unity but don’t address all that the word of God says about Jesus’ church having one mind. Without this there is no real unity. This is why St. Paul kept saying to follow his example, and to hold fast to what he was teaching. Jesus established one faith. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism. There can’t be real unity within divisions. The divisions are not the will of God. The divisions are self perpetuating to make more divisions. There can’t be real unity so they split off over disagreements, over and over again. You seem to be saying that the one mind doesn’t matter as long as everyone believes in Jesus. The word of God doesn’t teach this.

God Bless

[ January 15, 2002: Message edited by: Disciple ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Let me re-phrase my question: Do Lutherans believe there is one visible Church on earth that was instituted by Jesus Christ? The one Church refered to in Mt 18,17 that all Christians should go to in order to get their differences settled and whose final decisions they should accept. The one that according to 1 Tm 3,15 is the pillar and ground of truth so that when a Christian wants to know the truth for sure, he can go to that Church to find out what the truth is.
If so, then, is this the Lutheran church? But that can't be, because Luther didn't come along until the 1500s.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lutheran's believe in the "two churches".
We believe that Christ instituted what we call the invisible church, that is the church of the true believers. The second church is the visible church which includes all the rituals of man, the true believers, the hypocrits, the unbelievers, etc. I may be oversimplifying but this covers the jist of the teaching.

Tuor, we believe that we are joined in unity by the sharing of the True Body and Blood. By coming up to recieve the True Body and Blood you would be making a public confession that you believed that it is the True Body and Blood, but you don't believe that it is truely physically present so that would make you a hypocrit(I am going beyond the context of 1 Cor for this definition of hypocrit, taking the whole Bible in context).