A question about hell

Me too, great movie.

Jer 17 is speaking about a specific event, not eternal punishment of the lost.

Jer 17:27 But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

Similar language is used in other parts of scripture:

Jer 7:20 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

Here is what the great Baptist theologian John Gill says concerning this verse,(remember, being a Baptist goes a long way with you):

Jer 7:20 - Therefore thus saith the Lord God,.... Since these are their thoughts, and this the fruit of their doings:

behold, my anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place; like fire, to consume and destroy it; meaning Jerusalem, which was burned with fire; as an emblem of God's wrath, and an instance of his vengeance upon it, for sins; which came down in great abundance, like a storm or tempest:

upon man and upon beast; upon beasts for the sake of man , they being his property, and for his use; otherwise they are innocent, and do not deserve the wrath of God, nor are they sensible of it:

and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of your ground ; which should be blighted by nipping winds, or cut down and trampled upon by the Chaldean army:

and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched ; that is, the wrath of God shall burn like fire, and shall not cease until it has executed the whole will of God in the punishment of his people.


Is this “unquenched fire” still burning?

2Ki 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched .

Is Sodom and Gomorrah still burning? It says eternal fire.

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example , suffering the vengeance of eternal fire .

Judgment on Edom:

Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever : from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

If we were to travel to OT Edom would we still see the burning? It says it will not be quenched night or day. Sound familiar?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever : and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

If the smoke rises forever and ever in Rev 14:11 then it must still be burning in Edom today. Correct?

You see the problem? Revelation is a book that draws much of its language and symbolism from the OT. If we go back to the OT and look how the language is used there, it gives us a good idea of how John uses it in Revelation. So unless you believe the OT examples are to be taken in a literal sense, you must allow the possibility that the language is used in a similar way in Revelation or other NT books. If you take the OT in a literal sense, then there should be fires in the Middle East as we speak that have been burning for centuries.

 

Burning in Edom or "hell", and that could apply to most if not all the Scriptures you quoted.

Genesis 2
"17": But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The above Scripture is a speciific event and if you are honest you will agree,
but somehow it still applies to us today. You pick out a word and place your whole argument on that word when the Lord was telling them if they disobeyed he would send the fire and if they obeyed they would receive an eternal city. There are many many Scriptures in the Bible of specific events that will take place spiritual such as "Babylon has fallen, Babylon has fallen" that is just one example I don't have the time to and would take too long to give you all of them but you know yourself without me telling you that it is so. Also, I don't even know Gill and was quoted something he said the other day I didn't believe, "all of Israel are not Israel" , not saying that about him just telling you I take it with a grain of salt including what you say.

I notice you didn't respond to me showing you a Scripture about the soul receiving eternal life?

I must ask you a specific question. Do you believe that God can lie?

[ April 22, 2006, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

I explained it in my post. How is annihilation punishment when you aren't there to suffer it? Being out like a light is not punishment; it's non-existence. Also, as I said, many people who believe there is nothing after death are looking forward to this.

I agree that this is not the best way to engage in the discussion but frankly, I barely have time to post my own words, much less to re-invent the wheel. I would end up quoting from the articles anyway as they have expressed it all already and have dealt with the pro-annihilation stuff.

 

I do assert that the soul is immortal and for one use the following:
Psalms, psalm 23

"1": The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.

"2": He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

"3": He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

"4": Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

"5": Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

"6": Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

 

Not sure your point, other than clouding the simple yes or no question I asked you. The verses I quoted from the OT have nothing to do with Hell. One dealt with Edom, two dealt with Jerusalem and one with Sodom and Gomorrah.

Look, lets quit playing games. The reason you will not answer is because if you answer yes, the fires are still burning, you would be labeled a fool because there are no fires still burning from those passages. If you answer no, the fires are not burning, then you acknowledge that “unquenchable” “eternal” and “forever” doesn’t have to mean unending. In doing so, you have undercut your own argument that those terms mean unending when used in the NT.

I do Agree.

Not really unless you know where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is. The results of Adam eating applies to us today.

What word? You pick our “eternal”, “unquenchable” and “forever” and build your beliefs around those.

Careful Bob, taking a “spiritual” approach to Revelation might not put you in good standing with Baptists. At least those of the pre-mill dispie persuasion.

Yes I know, that’s why I’m a preterist.

So when you said this:

Reason I say Baptist is because I am one and that goes a long way with me.

You meant it goes a long way with you, if they agree with you.

I agree with you, through Christ our soul receives eternal life. What I am trying to get you to answer is how one who rejected Christ is able to live eternally in hell? If immortality only comes through Christ then how do those who reject Christ live forever?

NO.

See how easy it is to answer a simple yes or no question? Why won’t you do the same?

So Ps 23 is applied equally to the saved and lost? God gives the lost soul immortality as well?

"3": He restoreth my soul:

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine. As the soul of the father, also the soul of the son, they are Mine. The soul that sins, it shall die.

 

How is the death penalty punishment when you are not there to suffer it?

You honestly don’t see how the exclusion from eternal life and immortality is punishment? Again, then you must oppose the death penalty because how is non-existence punishment?

Every doctrinal topic has been discussed and dealt with before, but that hasn’t stopped you from engaging in debate before. But if you must rely on web pages, then cut and paste me one dealing with the Tree of Life and I will address it and ask questions.

And I keep telling you that annihilation is an eternal punishment and is the perfect contrast to life eternal.

Good, I would like to see where the words “perish” and “destroy” mean separation from God.

This is my point, theologians still have no consensus on what the Tree of Life provided. Your inability to explain does not bolster my view, but neither does it disprove my view.

The Tree of Life is, in my opinion, the foundation of immortality and has everything to do with the doctrine of final punishment.

Gen 3:22 And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become as one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever,
Gen 3:23 therefore Jehovah God sent him out from the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he had been taken.

It seems that the expulsion from the Garden was an act of Grace. God did not want Adam to “live forever” in a fallen state. So the question is what is meant by “live forever”? It seems to mean one of two things, either Adam would have never physically died or Adam would have gained immortality and existed forever.

It is my view the Tree of Life offered immortality. Only access to the Tree of Life gives a man immortality and that access is now only through Jesus Christ. So if one rejects Jesus they have no immortality and cannot exist forever in heaven or hell.

2Ti 1:10 But it is now having been manifested by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has made death of no effect, bringing life and immortality to light through the gospel;

Immortality is a gift, Adam was not created immortal. Only God is immortal”

1Ti 6:15 For He in His own time will reveal who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in light which cannot be approached, whom no one of men have seen, nor can see; to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.

If the soul is not immortal then how does it exist forever in hell? Is not immortality the ability to exist forever?

 

You said you once believed as I do. Why did you change?

The soul that sinneth shall die means to die in sin.

Luke, chapter 9
"60": Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

was talking about 2 kinds of death. The father who was naturally dead and those who were alive but dead in trespasses in sin, hence "the soul that sinneth shall die".


Luke, chapter 16

"22": And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

"23": And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

"24": And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

His soul was dead in the eyes of God as a sinner but still alive in the flames. Also, Hell is to be cast into the LoF, so he it will be for ever. Therefore the soul of the sinner also shall live for ever somewhere.

He restoreth my soul was from a dead state of sin unto a lively hope with Jesus Christ. So we see the soul of the righteous lives forever somewhere.

If God can't lie and He said it would be for eternity then we know the wall was destroyed so He was talking about where the rich man is as far as I can tell for He can't lie.

When I say spiritual I mean he takes a natural happening that has already taken place and uses it to describe the great whore and fornicator at the end of time.
I don't believe the 1000 years is yet to come so that lets me off the hook as far as Gill is concerned.

When I talked about the happenings in the Garden, I did mean what happened to Adam.

I think I got it all. You do a lot of studying so why do you spend all your time trying to destroy what is believed by most Christians. Did the Baptist do something to you?

 

This verse should settle the matter except for only the most proud detractors.

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7

According to Jude, those that were destroyed in those cities for their sins are still at his time of writing, "suffering" (present tense) in an "eternal fire." These same folks that were killed thousands of years prior to Jude's epistle are still suffering the "vengence" of the Lord (Rom. 12:19; 2 Thes. 1:8) in flames.

No annihilation here folks. And there is no vengence or treasuring up of wrath against the day of wrath (Rom. 2:5) in the false teaching of annihilation.

All annihilists who read this should repent immediately of their error and move on thanking God for His Word and direction from their error.

 

Just personal study. It started with the Tree of Life and went from there.

But you put forth this passage as proof that the soul is immortal. It proves no such thing. It only proves God restores the soul of the righteous.

No, what it means is you are forcing words like “eternal” and “unquenchable” to mean something they clearly do not mean. How you get the rich man out of Jer.17 is beyond me.

Ok, if those OT passages are teaching us a lesson about future punishment then what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah? What happened to Jerusalem? Are they still burning or were the consumed by fire?

I’m not trying to destroy what most Christians believe I simply am pointing out the problems with the traditional view. If you believed the Bible taught something that the modern Church was wrong about would you do nothing? I’m glad Luther didn’t take your approach.

No, I am a Baptist. Don’t be like the Catholics and just believe something because that is what your tradition tells you to believe. Think for yourself occasionally .

Might want to read a little closer, “giving themselves over” is also present tense. I guess you still believe they are giving themselves over to fornication? Careful, sex in Hell might hurt evangelistic efforts since sex in heaven seems unlikely.

We covered this part earlier, except the part where you didn’t answer the question of how the lost receive immortality if they are not in Christ:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

 

"6": Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
He never separated it back out it says "I" which includes all He was talking about certainly included the soul would dwell in the house of the Lord for ever. "you do err"

How you change the meaning of eternal to suit your case is beyond me.

 

So, now, you're suggesting that salvation is based on works?

 

All that salt water blowing over your head has made its mark. sad!

I didn't write the Scriptures they were given by God. If they are not up too you specs then live with it

[ April 23, 2006, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

You don’t make any sense, how do I err? I don’t deny those who are saved dwell with God forever.

Yet it is you who would never answer the simple yes or no question.

All I’m asking you to do is prove it from scripture.

Tell JackRUS, not me. I don’t claim it is present tense.

Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes for which backsliding Israel committed adultery, I sent her away and gave a bill of divorce to her, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear, but she went and whored, she also.

Perhaps you should have asked someone, since it wasn’t me making that point but it was someone who agrees with you.

Run out of scriptural arguments?

 

He can't, so he want. I asked him about the same thing. He's claiming that everlasting salvation is based on works, and all he can come up with is a non-answer.

 

That Scripture begins talking about the soul and never removes it from the Scripture so for ever includes the soul also. [/quote]

It is talking about the past tense and saying its the same today (that day) but also even today.[/quote]

?????, no but we are going around and around and starting to draw flies.

 

Grasshopper.
I think that your problem is that you, like Charles Russel before you, just can't accept anything bad that is in the Bible.

You are a full preterist that rejects any idea that the Great Tribulation is still ahead of us, so you reject that truth.

You also don't like the idea that people could be send to a place of eternal torment, so you reject that truth as well.

You are just choosing to believe what you want to believe instead of the clear teaching of Scripture.

 

The death penalty ends physical life but not consciousness. I am not saying I'm for the death penalty, just answering the question. Of course, for annihilationists, the death penalty for an unbeliever would be punishment I guess, but for some, it would just be escape, sleep, or the end of everything.

I have no view on what the Tree of Life means because I don't think the Bible explains it. However, I do not think that my lack of a view on this disproves that unbelievers live on after death.

To have those saved living on consciously with God after death is the opposite of the unsaved living on consciously after death separated from God. Non-existence is not the opposite of living consciously with God after death.

I think Jesus told the story (not parable) of the rich man and the beggar to specifically show us that there is eternal conscious suffering after death for those apart from God. And I think this is a strong argument for that.

 

What does death mean in the Bible?

The first death means physical separation from the earth and from one's body.

The second death means separation from God, not the end of consciousness. Death never means the end of consciousness, as we see in Luke 16.

 

Grasshopper, believers receive immortal life. Those outside of Christ receive eternal death -- not immortality. Eternal death is eternal separation from God. It is existence but it is not life.

Immortality for believers in Christ in the Bible refers to life with God after death -- those who are not believers are still conscious after death, but they are not having immortal life because they are separated from God. So they are in an eternal state of conscious separation from God, which is the 2nd death.

So you are right - unbelievers do not have immortal life - they have eternal death, eternal conscious separation from God. That is not annihilationism.

Immortality = conscious life with God

Eternal punishment = conscious separation from God, which is eternal existence, which is eternal death (since it is apart from God)

 

Not familiar with Charles Russel.

I’m in good company.

C.H. Spurgeon (1888)
For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, "His blood be on us, and on our children." Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses; of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city; of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless; and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital; and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred." (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412,413)

John Gill
Mat 24:29 - Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it;

John Lightfoot
Mat 24:29 -
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

[The sun shall be darkened, etc.] that is, the Jewish heaven shall perish, and the sun and moon of its glory and happiness shall be darkened, and brought to nothing. The sun is the religion of the church; the moon is the government of the state; and the stars are the judges and doctors of both.

Eusebius (325)
"It is fitting to add to these accounts the true prediction of our Saviour in which he foretold these very events. His words are as follows: "Woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
"These things took place in this manner in the second year of the reign of Vespasian, in accordance with the prophecies of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who by divine power saw them beforehand as if they were already present, and wept and mourned according to the statement of the holy evangelists, who give the very words which be uttered, when, as if addressing Jerusalem herself, he said: "If thou hadst known, even thou, in this day, the things which belong unto thy peace! But now they are hid from thine eyes. For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a rampart about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee and thy children even with the ground."(History)

F.W. Farrar (1882)
To minds already glowing with expectations of the Coming of Christ, and the close of the ages, the signs of the times must have worn a portentous aspect. The sunset sky of the ancient dispensation was red and lowering with the prophecy of storm. The "woes of the Messiah" -- the travail throes of the Future Age -- the pangs which were to accompany the new birth of the Messianic kingdom -- were already shaking the world. [20] There were wars and rumours of wars. There were famines and earthquakes. The Church had barely passed through the anguish of the great tribulation. " (The Apocalypse)

Philip Schaff (1877)
"The forbearance of God with his covenant people, who had crucified their own Saviour, reached it last its limit. As many as could be saved in the usual way, were rescued. The mass of the people had obstinately set themselves against all improvement. James the Just, the man who was fitted, if any could be, to reconcile the Jews to the Christian religion, had been stoned by his hardened brethren, for whom he daily interceded in the temple; and with him the Christian community in Jerusalem had lost its importance for that city. The hour of the "great tribulation" and fearful judgment drew near. The prophecy of the Lord approached its literal fulfilment: Jerusalem was razed to the ground, the temple burned, and not one stone was left upon another. (History of the Christian Church p. 397-398)"

But feel free to stick with Jack VanImpe and John Hagee if you wish.

What I like or don’t like is irrelevant. I try not to let my bias influence my study of scripture. Likewise, just because you may like the thought of endless torment doesn’t make your view correct.

Clear? So clear I can’t get people to answer simple questions. What is the “clear” meaning of perish and destroy?
Perhaps before practicing your “drive by theology” you might want to address questions already on the table before firing off new ones. Are the people of Sodom and Gomorrah still fornicating? What about Romans 2:7, how do the lost receive immortality in order to experience your endless torture?