Catholic or Protestant ? : ANSWERS

Hi enda,

I encourage you to compare (A) with (B).

(A) "Following on from this disposition or preparation is justification itself, which is not only the remission of sins but also the sanctification and renovation of the interior man through a voluntary reception of grace and the gifts, so that man being unjust becomes just, and from being an enemy becomes a friend."

(B) "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" (Rom 5:19).

 

I would agree that we 'become' children of God. But I would not define that to be justification. That is adoption. Justification is to declare or announce a favorable verdict, to declare righteous (Ryrie, Basic Theology). It no more makes a person righteous than to condemn someone makes them wicked. But hey, I guess all this is for another thread.

Neal

 

1a, 2a, 3a, 4b (I think!), 5a, 6b, 7b, 8a, 9a, 10a.

Yours in Christ

Matt (former RC!)

 

I believe in justification by the blood of Christ and by faith in Him and His blood. But God has chosen that we first contact His blood in baptism, and later in walking in the light 1 John 1:7. Jesus shed His blood "into the remission of sins" (Mat 26:28) and we are to be baptized "into the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38) - we are therefore to be baptized into the very "place" that Jesus' blood was shed into. Colossian 2:11-13 teaches that those who are dead in sin are quickened in baptism if they are baptized with faith in the operation of God (that is that they believe that God will wash their sins away in it by the blood of Christ).

Furthermore, we are justified by His resurrection as Rom 4:25 says He "was raised again for our justification." We are begotten again by the resurrection (1 Pet 1:3), that is in baptism in which we participate in the resurrection. (Titus 3:5 [Jn 3:5], Col 2:11-13, Rom 6, 1 Peter 3:21)

[ June 16, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: SolaScriptura in 2003 ]

 

1-a
2-a
3-a
4-a
5-a
6-b not really sure on this one
7-b
8-a
9-a
10-a

I scored exact opposite of Kathryn so I guess that makes me a hardcore 5 point Calvinistic Reformed Baptist. Hallelujah!!1

 

I think Carson is afraid to take the test because he might find out that he is a Protetsant.

 

Hi Neal,

You wrote, "I would agree that we 'become' children of God. But I would not define that to be justification. That is adoption."

From the Catholic perspective, the Son justifies us and the Spirit sanctifies us. What Jesus Christ does to us is justify us. This is his purpose, his mission. That is what adoption is. It is our very incorporation into Jesus Christ as children of God. This is how we are justified. We become sons of God.

You see, adoption and justification are inseparable. If we are merely "adopted" only "legally" as children, then we are only mere justified "legally". If we are actually made children of God (and not just called such), then we are actually and truly made just, and that is the purpose of sanctification.

Justification is to declare or announce a favorable verdict, to declare righteous

And when God speaks, his word is creative. As John Henry Cardinal Newman said, "God's word, I say, effects what it announces. This is its characteristic all through Scripture. He calleth those things which be not, as though they are, [Rom 4:17] and they are forthwith. Thus in the beginning He said, Let there be light, and there was light. Word and deed went together in creation; and so again "in the regeneration," . . . So again in His miracles, he called Lazarus from the grave and the dead arose; he said, Be thou cleansed, and the leprosy departed; He rebuked the wind and the waves, and they were still; He commanded the evil spirits, and they fled away; . . . so again in the Sacraments His word is the consecrating principle. As He blessed the loaves and fishes, and they multiplied, so He blessed and brake, and the bread became His Body. . . . It would seem, then, in all cases that God's word is the instrument of His deed. When, then, He solemnly utters the command, Let the soul be just, it becomes inwardly just" (J. H. Newman, Lectures on the Doctrine of Justification. 3rd ed. [London: Rivingtons, 1874], 81-82).

It no more makes a person righteous than to condemn someone makes them wicked.

In Scripture (Rom 5:19), we are told that in Adam, we were "made" sinners, and in Christ, we are "made" righteous. Our being condemned wasn't merely a legal condemnation. We actually sin; our nature has been made sinful. Our being justified isn't merely a legal justification. We are actually made just; our nature is made right.

 

"So all we can do is "open the door" for He says "

Actually we can't even do that on our own. To come to salvation we can claim nothing or do nothing for ourselves BY OUR OWN POWER. To make such a statement is semi-Pelgianism. But your statements above that there is no study, etc. etc. is also false. There may well be study that gets us to the point where we can open the door by his grace, but that study is motivated by the inner desire HE PLANTED in us to know who HE IS. The spirit "moves upon the waters", it "blows where it will". Cornelius was a "righteous man" (so much for the common Prot usage "ther is none righteous" even before coming to Christ. Coincientally I see no indication that he had ever read any scripture. He was not a Jew and yet he had come to believe in one God. Imagine that.

 

My explanation of the supposed contradiction between James and Paul:

Paul was talking about works intended to EARN salvation.

James about works inteneded to ACCESS salvation.

Abraham was justified by faith NOT works according to Paul.

Abraham was justified by both faith AND works according to James.

Paul meant that Abraham did not EARN justification by his works.

James meant that Abraham did ACCESS justification by his works.

James thus concludes in 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

Does repentance earn us salvation? No, but it is required to access it! Does confessing Christ earn salvation? No, but it is required to access it! Does being dunked under water earn us salvation? No, but it is required to access it! Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

 

Interesting; although I have quibbles with many of the phrasings, and am inclined to think systematic theology of any stripe is a trap and an idol in waiting, I came up with very nearly Kathryn's mirror image, which I suppose means that in some way I'm Protestant after all:

1a
2a (with reservations)
3a (with reservations)
4b
5ab neither/both
6 neither
7b
8a
9 both
10 closer to a

Haruo

 

Always? Does God always create something when He speaks?

Neal

 

Sola,

I have a question for you. What do you do with Romans 10:9-10, for starters. Is that not correct? Did Paul forget to mention baptism as necessary for salvation?

Neal

 

Hi Neal,

You asked, "Does God always create something when He speaks?"

I don't know, does he?

 

You are the one who seemed to affirm that. Is your real answer "I don't know" or are you trying to answer my question with a question?

Neal

 

Last night my wife asked me to go to the store and get milk. Two hours later she got mad at me because I hadn't left yet. "well gee honey, you didn't tell me to take the car, go up morgan, take a right....". The Bible does not have to every time it talks about salvation, also talk about Baptism. It is interesting that in implying that it should, you can only find one place out of 273 in the whole NT that the word faith is used with the word alone and that one place gives you problems. You would think he could have cleared up alot just using it once if it were true. One who has confessed that Jesus is Lord as in the verse you cite will be obedient to him in Baptism, thereby recieving the Holy Spirit and having his soul cleansed.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

It is the action of the Holy Spirit that saves one who is on the path to salvation. On that path is the sacrement of Baptism.

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism NOW saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Again, by your logic it doesn't say you have to believe so let's just do a little dunk on everyone. Nope, you have to pool all the scriptures together, not single them out. Then you get a complete picture of how baptism and salvation are tied together.


Last I checked, now means at the moment. Anthor verse commonly used in your line of thinking is:

Mark 16:16
"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

"Oh well it doens't say disbelieved and is not baptized..."

True enough but it doesn't take alot of logic to see that if you don't believe you won't be obedient and be baptized. Thus will reject salvation which includes baptism.

 

Hi Neal,

I would say that this isn't the case considering that God says many things in the OT without actually creating something, but whenever he declares a change, his word seems to be creative.

so shall my word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the thing for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)

When we are declared just, I would think that God's word does what it sets out to accomplish; it makes man just.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous (Romans 5:19)

 

Is it really the only place in the NT that talks about faith (or belief, if you will) is all that is required for salvation? If you think so, you better start reading some more. Also, read my post a little more closely. I said "for starters." I did not say it is the only place. Are you willing to tell me that you HAVE to be baptized (immersed, after all, that is what the word really means) in order to obtain eternal life?

Neal

 

Thank-you for clarifying, Carson.

Neal

 

Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would guide the apostles into all truth. One of the apostles then, the apostle Peter, by the selfsame Spirit wrote "baptism saves us." Yet, you don't believe that's true, and in disbelieving that, you are denying that Peter was guided into all truth by the Spirit and thereby you are saying that Jesus lied, and thereby you are proving that you don't believe Jesus, becuse it was He who said the apostles would be guided into all truth by the Spirit.

(Rom 10:11 NNAS) "For the Scripture says, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." -- But, the one who through his doctrine makes Jesus a lier obviously doesn't believe in Him and will be sorely disappointed.