Is the Canon closed?

Trying2Understand:
Specifically, which other writings are you suggesting I read? And, which inspired author are you suggesting I read? HOW DO YOU KNOW ANY WRITING IS INSPIRED? What is your standard? Is your standard objective or subjective ( an opinion).
Moreover, my answer to your question would be there is no evidence to accept any other writings as they do not meet the divine standard ( objective)for inspiration.

 

The Jewish canon consists of thirtynine books; the Christian consists of sixty-six for Protestants and eighty for Catholics (whose canon includes the Apocrypha, regarded by most as of deuterocanonical status).

To correct the info, it's 66 for Protestants and 72 for Catholics.

 

John,

73, but who's counting?

Mark

 

I thought it was 73 also--Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Ecclessiasticus, 1 & 2 Maccabees, and Baruch being the seven extra books.

(Not that it matters )

 

Trying2Understand:

Yes, I can verbalize the standard. The only objective standard for any law is GOD. Only God is capable of setting forth an objective standard for man. It is called Truth. It is his word. John 17:17,John 8:31,32. The word of God is free from any subjectivity. Isaiah 55:8-13. The word of God is pure. I Pet. 1:23. The words of man are corruptible. See the creeds, articles of faith of the ists and isms of religion.

This objective standard teaches the following:
1. All truth was promised to the apostles. John 16:13. Paul being the LAST as one being born out of due time. I Cor. 15:8,9. Therefore, the objective standard EXCLUDES ALL MEN who came after Paul and claimed apostleship. In fact those who claimed apostleship outside the objective standard were tried and found Liars. Rev. 2:2.

2. The objective standard for inspiration and apostleship was the ability to perform biblical miracles. II Cor.12:12; Acts 3;6; 9:40; 20;9,10. Therefore, the objective standard EXCLUDES ALL who cannot perform Biblical miracles.Mark 16:17-20.

3.The objective standard required the miraculous power be given to others by the laying on of the apostles hands. Acts. 8:17,18;8:12-16.

4. The objective standard mandated that the performing of the miraculous be for a DIVINE PURPOSE. John 20:30,31.Therefore, this excludes ALL who claim to reveal truth by inspiration.

5. The obvjective standard PROMISED THE HOLY SPIRIT TO THE APOSTLES AND GENTILES OF THE FIRST CENTURY. Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:14,17;10:44;8:18.

6. The objective standard proclaims that the miraculous abitlity was to cease. Eph. 4:12-16. This was to end upon the completion of that which is perfect. I Cor. 13:8-13. Therefore, this EXCLUDES ALL who claiim to proclaim and write by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Jude 3,Acts 20:27,Rev. 22:18,19.

7. The word of God requires one under the miraculous influence to confirm his message and office by the miraculous power of the Holy Spirit. II Cor. 12:12. If one has what they had, he can do what they did. As of this writing, no one has met the OBJECTIVE STANDARD OF GOD FOR INSPIRATION.

 

Frank said
I have provided the evidence that revelation ceased after the death of the apostles. John 16:13


John 16 says nothing about the death of the apostoles

Frank adds
, Luke 24;44-51, Acts 2:1-4;8:17,18, Mark 16:17-20, ICor. 13:8-13, Eph. 4;12-16.

None of these texts mention the death of the Apostles.

You simply made that up.

Fra
nk adds
If men today are inspired, then they should have the same credentials of inspiration. II Cor. 12:12.

1Cor 12 give the list of the gifts of the Holy Spirit - not 2Cor 12.

Neither of them state that after the apostles are all dead the Gifts of the Holy Spirit can not be given.

In a devastating way - 1 Cor 12 points out that there is MORE than the ONE Gift "Apostle" so using 2Cor 12:12 (as if ALL have to be Apostles) does not work. 1 Cor 12 declares that ALL DO NOT have the SAME gifts.

Your interpretation did not even work when the discisples WERE alive -

Frank said
Furthermore, if the credentials are not the same for men who are inspired today, who changed the requirements and how do we know this to be the case.

You only listed the requirement of an Apostle - you did not show that to have ANY of the gifts in 1Cor 12 you must FIRSt be an Apostle.

Furthermore - we have many examples (David for Example) of an inspired author that DID NOT raise the dead, heal the sick etc.

Frank said
Bob, all you have to do to prove me wrong is to find one inspired man to raise someone from the dead, make the blind see, the lame walk. If he has what the apostles had; he can do what they did.

David
Solomon
Malachi
Nahum
Agabus
The daughters of Philip

All of them are inspired authors, or prophets that DID NOT heal the sick, raise the dead etc etc.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob:
The Bible teaches by IMPLICATION the miraculous power ceased when the time of the apostles ceased.
Consider the following:
1. The Holy Spirit was Promised to the APOSTLES. John 14:16;15:26:16:13,Luke 24:44-51. This was as per Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17.
2. The Holy Spirit was to be given to the Gentiles
as per Joel 2:28. It was Acts 10:44.
3. The METHOD OF GIVING THE MIRACULOUS GIFTS was through the LAYING ON OF THE APOTLES HANDS. Acts 8:18. If there was another way to receive the miraculous power, SIMON would not have had to offer to buy it. Furthermore, as per acts 8: 20,21 it was not intended for others to be able to give it to someone else. Notice he had no part or lot in this matter.
4. The divine purpose of the Holy Spirit was to guide the apostles in ALL TRUTH. The Holy Spirit
did so by his word. Hebrews 4;12, Eph. 6:17, 20:27, Jude 3, Rev. 22:18,19.
5. The miraculous power of the Holy Spirit was NOT TO CONTNUE FOREVER IT WAS TO CEASE. I Cor. 13:8-11.
The method of giving the power of the Holy Spirit was provided by the laying on of the apostles hands. Unless there is a 2,000 year old apostle alive, this ability has ceased. Since the method has ceased, then the necessary implication is the miraculous operation has ceased. If not,why not?

This is called IMPLICATION OF SCRIPTURE. This is one of three ways all language communicates.

Bob, if you know someone who speaks by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, I offer you and him this challenge. Produce a Biblical miracle like the aposltes did and I will believe modern day revelation is spoken by men today. After all, if he has what they had; he can do what they did!!! Mark 16:17-20, Acts 3:6;9:44;20:11;28:3-6.

I have made this challenge to produce the credentials of inspiration on many occasions, as of this writing, Nne claiming inspiration has met the objective standard of God in his matter. Therefore, I must conclude they are liars. Rev. 2:2.

 

Bob:
As for those on your list, none were promised ALL TRUTH. The miraculous power of the first century was for the divine purpose of completing the revelation of God to man. It was a specific promise to a specific group of people. Those on your list were not promised the miraculous intervention of the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth. SEE John 14:16,15:26;16:13,Luke 24:44-51, Acts 2:1-4,17.
The Old Testament prophets did perform miralces. SEE II Kings 2:14,I Kings 17:20,21. Solomon. II Chronicles 7:1.
Furthermore, in order to prove authenticity in the old testament the prohesy had to come true. Deut. 18. David was confirmed as God's spokesmen by being annointed by the power of the prophet who posssed the prophetic ability. The prophet Samuel annointed David and the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. I Sam. 16:13. It is worthy to note that those who witnessed David's victory over the Philistine giant believed the Spirit of God was upon David. The victory over the Philistine was proof God was working through David. We are not given any details as to the proof of the propheises of Agabus or Philip's daughters, except,in the case of Agabus, his utterance did come true. Acts 11:28;21:10,11. Paul was taken prisoner at Jerusalem. 26:28-30. Agabus signified these things by the Spirit. We are simply not told what the sign was. Whatever the proof was, it has nothing to do with the proof of inspiration for those who DID write by the power of God. Their writings are still incontrovertibly inspired of God.
Now, what is the proof of inspiration for those who claim to speak by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit today?

 

Trying2understand:
They do not meet numbers one through seven as per my previous post. Therefore, I reject any writing as inspired that does not meet the litmus of the New Testament for inspiration. Moreover, I would like to know why I should accept them as inspired?

 

T2U:
Specifically, for whom and what book are you contending?

 

The canon, as we have it now, was determined by men who used given standards. If those same standards could be applied to a new document, I see no reason why it could not be included. Odds of meeting those same standards are virtually impossible given the time span.

The men who determined the canon were theologians and no more. They did not possess extra inspiration from God, but they did establish very rigid standards in determining what was to be accepted and what to be rejected.

This is not to say that the scriptures in our possession are not sufficient to give us our understanding of God, salvation and other important doctrines.

Adding a modern theolgians writings? No.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

You wrote, "The men who determined the canon were theologians and no more. They did not possess extra inspiration from God, but they did establish very rigid standards in determining what was to be accepted and what to be rejected."

If the men who determined the canon were nothing more than theologians apart from any infallible guidance of the Holy Spirit, would you concede that the canon, as it stands today, is a fallible list?

This would mean that when you quote from the New Testament, you may very well be quoting from an uninspired text that is in error.

 

Trying,,,,,,,,Any idea of what men?

And by what authority?
_____________________________________

You are virtually asking me to write a church history text here. Any good church history book will give you these details. I am not being facetious on this point, but it is a fact.

Here is the reference to an excellent book on the subject: http://www.gospelcom.net/cgi-ivpress/book.pl/code=1258

Cheers,

Jim