To all Catholic Church going people!!!!

Yes why do catholics idolize Mary? As if she were a goddess. If she were so....

Why does Jesus tell John to take care of her?

Why does the bible tell us to pray to our Father in Heaven, it never mentions Mary?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me; does this mean goddesses too?

Who does the bible say to give all the glory, honor, and praise to?

In all things who should we pray thanks to?

Who does the bible say we should take all our needs to?

Who came as a Man, was the Son of God, overcame death, saved the lost, died on the cross, covered me with blood, lives inside me, and went to the Father to prepare a place for me? Who said "I will be back?" Who gave us that Hope?

Who said make no graven images of Me?

Who do you say sits on the right hand of God the father?

Who do you say He is?

If you answer these questions like I think you will.....then how do you hail or pray to a woman? How do you place statues in your yards of a likeness of her you think, or count beads? Who was neither God the Father, the Son of God (who had all authority and power from God) or His Holy Spirit.

 

I'm currently reading the Acts of the Apostles and St. Paul's letters to the Corinthians. I also picked up a copy of Vatican II and am reading through it with a Bible handy to look up the countlesses Scripture references all throughtout the documents. Thank you, but I'm quite in touch with the Word of God, and when me and friends get together for Religious discussions, I teach them about my Church using Scripture.

 

There's really not that much to get back on; it's the truth.

 

DHK, when was the last time you were humble?

 

I'll go ahead and answer this to the best of my knowledge, knowing full well that giving you what you want, no one who is non-Catholic will accept my answer, and will instinctively tell me I'm wrong. That's why this post has been futile and we have not desired to answer it. It's not like you really want to see our point of view. You just want us to answer to give you the excuse to tell us how wrong we are once again. It's very disheartening.

Taking the first verse (which both my Bibles read "among women" and not "above women"), we have to realize that this is the OT, and Mary was not alive at this point. It does not say "blessed among women forever." Perhaps Jael, in God's eyes, was the most blessed woman of her time.

With Mary, she gave birth to the Christ, the Messiah, the savior of the world. Her saying "yes," made her the most active human participant in Christ's role of salvation for all of mankind. Could Mary have said "no?" Yes, she could have. Could God have then picked someone else? Of course. But you can't logically used "if/then"s in relation to history. It happened the way it did, and it happened THIS WAY for a reason. Mary was the "highly favored one," or the one "full of grace" chosen by God Himself to give birth to the Savior of the world. This makes her blessed among women. Because of the importance of this role, yes, as Catholic, I firmly believe this makes her the most blessed among women, worthy of our honor, and that she has a very special place in Heaven, close to her Son.

As for the second verse, so often used to show Jesus deemphasizing his love for his mother, that is not the case. First of all, Jesus loved his mother. Being the perfect man, I think it would be quite silly for him to have not had the deepest relationship with her. Therefore, when there is nothing wrong with honoring other human beings (the angel and Elizabeth both honor her, and Scripture sees no problem with this), it would be very awkward for Jesus to simply tell someone to not honor her. In fact, that's unChristian. "Honor they father and they mother" certainly wasn't thrown out the window, was it? So, unless you really want to believe that Jesus would publically dishonor His mother, there must be some other reason he responded this way. And there is. Yes, Mary is blessed, but Jesus states does not want people to lose site of what true blessedness is. He does not say "no" to the woman's comment, but simply "rather." In saying "rather," he is merely diverting her to another point, while never denying what she has said. For true blessedness "comes in the hearing of the Word of God and observing it." We observe Mary's blessedness because of her son. "Blessed art thou among women, and BLESSED IS THE FRUIT OF THEY WOMB, JESUS." Mary is blessed because of the savior.

All in all, Jesus was not dishonoring his mother, but stating what might not have been obvious, that having a fully biologically relationship to Him, the Savior of the world, something none of us have, does not deny us the blessings of God the Father. Trust in his word and obey it, and blessings come to us as well. We don't have to be blood kin to obtain these blessings.

God bless!

[ September 14, 2002, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

I don't idolize Mary, and calling her a goddess is insulting to me and my religion.

Because she is a human and needs caring for just as the rest of us do. I'm not sure what you're even getting it. Do you think Catholics believe she was some invincible person? We don't.

Because our prayers should be directed to our Holy God, through His Holy Son, by means of the Holy Spirit. But we are also encouraged to make intercessions on behalf of one another. You don't believe it, but I do believe that the saints in Heaven pray for us, and thus I am making no contradiction in asking the Mother of God to pray for me as well.

Sure does.

Don't take that out of context. "Honor they father and they mother." That's a COMMAND. All glory, honor, and praise IN ADORATION is to our one triune God. That does not mean we are not to honor our fellow man (or woman).

So if my mother sends me a birthday gift, am I not to tell her thank you? Or if I am having personal problems, I ask her to pray for me, and my problems disolve away, that I am not to tell her thank you for her prayers? I don't thank Mary for the actions of God; I thank HIM for those. I do thank Mary for her supplications on my behalf, as I'll take all the prayers I can get.

Ultimately, God. But we take our needs to God through our family and friends as well. Mary is both my family and my friend.

That would be Jesus Christ, my Savior. Amen.

How many people in your church wear cross necklaces? How many crosses do you have hanging on your walls in your home? God says not to make "graven" images of things on heaven "or on earth." Perhaps you are not aware of what "graven" means, and the fact that we don't worship statues of Mary.

His only Son, Jesus Christ, the lamb of God.

The Christ, the one who died and rose from the dead for the salvation of the human race.

"Hail" is a greeting, like "hello." Did you know this?
Prayer is intercessory as well, and not worship. I do not pray to Mary in worship. I pray to her as my spiritual mother, a gift of God. Someone who will pray for me. Also, statues are not evil, and your whole "count beads" comment shows your lack of knowledge of what the Rosary is. And no, she's not God. I never claimed that she was.

 

EXACTLY!!

Susan

 

Where exactly in the Bible are we told to pray to Mary and she will intercede for us

There is only ONE mediator between God and man and that is Jesus Christ!!

There is only one way to the Father and that is Jesus Christ!!

Mary was chosen by God because of her virtue and indeed by this she was blessed. But to make her out to be sinless and a prayer agent is to put her up their with Christ and that is WRONG!

Jesus Christ is The Door, He's our advocate with the Father, our Savior, our Lord, our intercessor. He did it all for us on the cross.

Not Mary, not some dead saints.
This is idolatry. So is the roseary and candle lighting.
Putting anything in place of Christ is a false doctrine.

I guess I made some angry with me, but we are supposed to expose false doctrine!

Susan

 

I question if you even read my last two posts, which completely answered these questions. Let me try again:

This has been explained countless times before. According to the Catholic interpretation of Scripture, the saints in heaven pray for us, and Mary is a saint in heaven, and thus Mary prays for us.

Amen. Catholics do not ever claim that Mary intercedes for us to the Father. That is Jesus' job. Mary intercedes for us to Jesus, as all Christians should do for one another.

Same thing.

Exactly when did I put her up with Christ? You didn't get that from my posts. And I didn't make her sinless; Christ, her savior, made this possible. Why? Ask God; he revealed it to me, I'm sure he can reveal it to you also.
A prayer agent? We are all prayer agents, and that isn't wrong.

Amen. Where did I disagree?

I've never in my life substituted Mary for Christ. And exactly how is "the Rosary in place of Christ?" That makes NO sense whatsoever. Candle lighting is in place of Christ? WHERE IS THIS COMING FROM?

I.E., if you disagree with it no a personal level, it is false doctrine. I'm so sorry that I can't agree with that.

 

GraceSaves,

I quote you twice:

The Holy Spirit is the only intercessor. The only intercessor . He goes to the Father and all that he hears from Him, He comes and whispers in my ear. There is no other.

Saints: People who have been seperated from the world and consecrated to the worship and service Of God. Follower of the Lord are referred to by this phrase throughout the Bible. Believers are called saints Romans 1:7, and saints in Jesus Christ, because they belong to the One who provides their sanctification.
.....Nelson's New Illustrated Bible Dictionary

So, I am a saint! I am praying for you. I am lifting you up. I am praying that your heart be softened, and you hear the Lord. But you must be the one to take it all to Jesus. No one can get to the Father but through the Son. Not even Mary.

Those in Heaven are singing praises to the Lord. Mary was an unjust human being who had to go to Jesus Christ, like you and me, to become just through Him. Jesus was the Just for the unjust! That He would bring us to God! Mary can never.

Friend God is all the glory, honor, and praise. In all things I give Him thanks.

There is no other!

Sherrie

 

The Holy Spirit is the only intercessor. The only intercessor . He goes to the Father and all that he hears from Him, He comes and whispers in my ear. There is no other. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think you realize what the argument is, because you're not REALLY reading my responses. No where...NO WHERE...have I put someone in place of Christ, a person or intercessor between God and man. NO WHERE. NO WHERE. NO WHERE.

You just contradicted yourself. You say you are a saint...and you can pray for me. But Mary...a saint...cannot pray for me. Granted, if you don't want to believe that, FINE, but I am perfectly entitled to believe that she is. If you can, she can.

You have lost sight of the argument. That's totally unrelated, and I never said anything about Mary making us just. You're swatting at invisible flies. I'm right here. The argument is right there. Please stay on task, read my response, and see that Mary's intercessions are the same as your intercessions. The only difference is that you are a saint on earth and she is a saint in Heaven. You don't replace Jesus through your intercessions for me, and neither does Mary. There is no arguement here; we are in agreement. You simply cannot accept that because you do not wish to understand the concept from my point of view.

 

By the way,

Everyone was complaining about the question not being answered, and I offered a very in depth answer...and no one has responded. It's like it was ignored, and instead we're focusing on side issues simply attacking Mary's role in the Catholic Church. I've taken your three verses and provided an explanation. Are we going to address it, or what?

 

Yes and now let me guess...you have made statues of me....and of course you will hail me too, right? Will I get beads?

I will become popular, and we will base a religion around me. I also will drive around in a bullet protective golf-cart, and oh...I know....I will make my town that I live in, the main center for this new found me! I get to change rules for mankind so that it fits around how I feel, and make everyone bound by the laws I make! I will ask that you all become humbled at my feet. You know Jesus is just a little too busy lately. I will decide what sins are forgiven and what the consquences shall be. Lets see give me 3 hail sherries and see me in the morning!

Do you see how rediculous this all sounds? You can not do any of this and be a child of God. God gave His Son. He made it as easy as is possible for a person to accept Him. He made a way. He never said go to Mary, Sherrie, The Pope, or anyone else! He said take it to Jesus. He said His laws would be in your hearts.

Sherrie

 

Please let me know when you're ready to stop being cynical and have a serious discussion about this. You're taking things off the deep end, and so of course it sonds ridiculous. I don't think you're reading my posts, which I've really researched and put my heart into. Are you completely overlooking what I'm saying so that you can stick with your agenda? I'm taking every thing you saying and looking into it. If you provide something that really changes my mind, I'm going to have to give it serious thought; I'm not blind. But I'm able to answer all of these questions because you're throwing out situations that DO NOT EXIST. Don't give me "what if"s. God has a plan, and we're talking about events that HAVE happened and ARE happening. "What if"s have no validity. Read my posts, quote them, respond, etc. Maybe then we'll get somewhere.

 

Nope, you'll color your hair blue, pile it up real high on you head, get a side kick with a neru suit, a red velvet couch, and go on tv and tell people to send in money so they can get the annointing.

 

The essence of the matter is the difference that the Church of Rome makes between "latria" and "hyper-dulia".

The worship of God versus the adoration of the saints.

A member of the Church of Rome will kneel before a crucifix in the position and attitude of prayer and worship. He/she will address Jesus and make a petition or praise. This is "latria" worship for God alone.

The same church member will then kneel before an image of Mary or St. Anthony in the position and attitude of prayer and "adoration" , address the saint (as if they were omnipresent and could hear the millions of others praying to them) and make a petition or praise. This is "dulia" adoration of the saints.

Baptists don’t see any difference and in fact there is none. It is the Jesuit version of Orwellian double-speak.
There is an old saying… if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. It’s a duck.

This "adoration" of and prayer to the saints is of great offense to Baptists (and many other Christians).

There can be no fellowship between us until this error and many others cease.

Friendship yes (those who are able), fellowship no.

HankD

[ September 14, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Hank, I'll make this short and sweet. Where, in a binding Catholic decree, can you find that we are allowed to "adore" saints? You put it in quotes, and thus you made it look official. Back it up now, because this is getting very grave. The Catholic Church condemns adoration of anyone but God alone. Veneration = honor. Adoration = worship. I want to see the word "adore" or "adoration" in association with the saints. Please. I beg you.

 

Jael's story is a parallel and foretelling of Mary & Christ.

Judges 5:24
"Most blessed among women is Jael, The wife of Heber the Kenite; Blessed is she among women in tents."

Judges 4:21
"Then Jael, Heber's wife, took a tent peg and took a hammer in her hand, and went softly to him and drove the peg into his temple, and it went down into the ground; for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died."

Judges 5:31
"Thus let all Your enemies perish, O LORD!
But let those who love Him be like the sun
When it comes out in full strength."

Jael was an insturment used by God to destroy evil.

Now consider the parallel.

Genesis 3:15
"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel."

1 John 3:8
"He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil."

Luke 1:42
"Then she spoke out with a loud voice and said, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!"

Mary too was an insturment used by God for the destruction of evil (Satan).

I have another example from the Book of Judith, but I figured you'd just reject it out of hand since you reject Judith.

 

Hanks been done this tired road before. Shortly he will pull out his dictionary to prove that veneration means adoration or worship.

Hank has admitted to honoring in ancestors, but when you use his dictionary to show that honor means venertion and thus Hank is admitting that he worships his ancestors by saying that he honors them, he will deny it.

It's a tired old song.

Ron