God is in control but not all events are predetermined.

You want glory in the context of God's judgment? Here goes:


Glory while girding on His sword in judgment

Psalm 45:3-5 Gird Your sword upon Your thigh, O Mighty One, With Your glory and Your majesty. 4 And in Your majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness; And Your right hand shall teach You awesome things. 5 Your arrows are sharp in the heart of the King's enemies; The peoples fall under You.


Glory while the day of the Lord of hosts comes to humble men in judgment

Isaiah 2:10-12 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty. 11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, And the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. 12 For the day of the LORD of hosts Shall come upon everything proud and lofty, Upon everything lifted up -- And it shall be brought low --


Glory while shaking the earth in terror

Isaiah 2:19-21 They shall go into the holes of the rocks, And into the caves of the earth, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily. 20 In that day a man will cast away his idols of silver And his idols of gold, Which they made, each for himself to worship, To the moles and bats, 21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, And into the crags of the rugged rocks, From the terror of the LORD And the glory of His majesty, When He arises to shake the earth mightily.


Glory while kindling a burning like a fire

Isaiah 10:16 Therefore the Lord, the Lord of hosts, Will send leanness among his fat ones; And under his glory He will kindle a burning Like the burning of a fire.


Glory while punishing those who oppressed His people

Isaiah 41:11-16 Behold, all those who were incensed against you Shall be ashamed and disgraced; They shall be as nothing, And those who strive with you shall perish. 12 You shall seek them and not find them -- Those who contended with you. Those who war against you Shall be as nothing, As a nonexistent thing. 13 For I, the LORD your God, will hold your right hand, Saying to you, 'Fear not, I will help you.' 14 " Fear not, you worm Jacob, You men of Israel! I will help you," says the LORD And your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. 15 "Behold, I will make you into a new threshing sledge with sharp teeth; You shall thresh the mountains and beat them small, And make the hills like chaff. 16 You shall winnow them, the wind shall carry them away, And the whirlwind shall scatter them; You shall rejoice in the LORD, And glory in the Holy One of Israel.


Glory while repaying His enemies and causing others to fear Him

Isaiah 59:18-19 According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, Fury to His adversaries, Recompense to His enemies; The coastlands He will fully repay. 19 So shall they fear The name of the LORD from the west, And His glory from the rising of the sun; When the enemy comes in like a flood, The Spirit of the LORD will lift up a standard against him.


Glory when Christ returns in judgment on those who rejected Him

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


Glory as a result of the seven bowl judgments of Revelation

Revelation 15:7-8 Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever. 8 The temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God and from His power, and no one was able to enter the temple till the seven plagues of the seven angels were completed.


Glory given to God by those in heaven because of His righteous judgment of the great harlot

Revelation 19:1-3 After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 "For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." 3 Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"


I mean, really, the word glory is used 379 times in the Bible. Surely, before you tried to make a point about God not getting glory from judgment, you would have done a word search? I guess not.

Yes, God receives glory from those whom He has redeemed AND He receives glory from the righteous judgment of those who refused His mercy.

 

So He wants me to "love my enemies" while He rejoices in their demise. really? To give the Lord Glory and for Him to glory is two different things. Come on!!! the Scriptures you used don't say God is glorying in destruction of man.

BTW you used 179 words in bold and I used 14.

 

Brother Bob, the glory is found in God's jealousy for His holiness. God will not share His glory with another. Remember the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal? God's glory was seen in His destruction of these idolators.

 

Give me a verse and chapter and let me look at the context please doulous for all I have read is that God glory was seen but not because of destruction of men.
I promise no vitriol

[ April 26, 2006, 12:31 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

Brother Bob, 1 Kings 18. The entire chapter. And Brother Bob, I am not saying that God takes some sick glee at the death of the wicked. What I am saying is that when the wicked are judged God receives the glory because He is the personification of glory and righteousness. No sinful act can usurp God of His glory. Am I making sense?

 

Not sure, there is a Glory about God I don't care where he is at or what He is doing and in most of the cases if not all it is talking in that sense, not that He is receiving glory out of destruction of men.

 

How about Exodus 14, especially verses 15-18?

 

God certainly gave Israel the power to slay their ememies when they were obedient and on the other hand caused them to be overthrown when they were disobedient but that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about God getting glory out of sinners and I don't see that was what was happening there with Elijah.

 

I was just going to say Exodus 15:1-21 . That was the chapter where Moses and Miriam and the Israelites give praise to God for the destruction of the Egyptians . V.11... Who is like you -- majestic in holiness , awesome in glory , working wonders ? Or what about V. 21 ? Miriam sang to them : Sing to the Lord , for He is highly exalted . The horse and its rider He has hurled into the sea .

 

God hardened Pharaoh's heart and He was trying to destroy God's people. God was fullfilling a promise to Israel that He would not leave them in bondage. He also has promised us if we believe that we can over come the devil and his angels. We are not talking about the same thing as if God is rejoicing from sinners, that is how this thread started or at least led into. He has always been a wall around His children. He gave them the wings of a great eagle where she flew into the wilderness and was nourished for a time and time and half a time and caused agreat flood to help her.

 

I thought we were discussing whether God gets glory from the destruction of the wicked. I'm not sure where "rejoicing" came from. I don't know that "rejoicing" is the best way to look at it.

 

Oh, you get Glory but no rejoicing. ok
No, it started because God was supposed to get Glory from evil.

 

Well, in Rev. 18 the saints and apostles and prophets are called to rejoice over the destruction of Babylon, so maybe that's not a completely wrong way to look at it either.

 

Doesn't mean a person in general but fornication, adultery, sin of the world etc. Sure the saints will rejoice in the destruction of sin.

 

I take it to mean the sinners too, since when a city is destroyed its inhabitants are generally destroyed too, along with their behaviors. But I'm not gonna get vitriolic about it.

 

You don't need to search for the word Glory to see the same sort of thing in action.

I once made the statement that sin is a necessary ingredient in the world in order for God to reveal the totality of who He is (not just His love and mercy, etc., but also His wrath). This is true whether He is revealing Himself to the objects of His wrath or to the objects of His mercy, or both. In this case, I am quoting just God displayin His righteous wrath. There are TONS of quotes I could use. This is but a small sample.

Now... there are plenty of verses where God makes Himself known through His other attributes. For example...

But isn't it obvious that God also makes Himself known by displaying His wrath? Even if you don't see (or can't admit) that it's the same thing as God doing things for His own glory, it should be obvious from the verses above that God defines Himself at least in part by His wrath upon unrighteousness. Because when He displays His wrath, he so often says, "then you will know that I am the LORD."

 

well people complain about getting the "words of men", so I provide biblical proof for my position... then people complain that I am proof texting, so I provide exegesis supporting my understanding of the texts, and people complain that posts are too long.... what's a person to do lol....

you said

thats all well and good, but it means exactly nothing, for you have not done anything to disprove my views, and nothing to prove your own.... all you have done is merely assert and there is no reason whatsoever to suppose that your mere assertions prove anything.

you said

lol... you don't have to nail me down as having a determinist view, I can simply tell you that I do adhere to compatibilism... does that help? go ahead and look it up.... it's ok... and if you want some real "theological logic", you can read Jonathan Edwards "A Careful and Strict Enquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of that Freedom of Will which is supposed to be essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame," to get an idea of where I get my understanding of the will and how it operates. That should more than fill your need for "theological logic" Come back and let me know when you have read it.

I would agree that as a part of God's perfections, there are some things He cannot do, He cannot lie, He cannot make a circle a square, etc.

you say

You are misunderstanding the word "aseity", it doesn't have to do with what God can learn, rather, it has to do with God's self existence, and the fact that He is not dependent on anything else for His existence, He is not a contingent being and further, that God is a "necessary being", that is to say that God necessarily exists-- that it is impossible for God to not exist. SO God is an uncaused necessary being with no potentialities. So if you want to instruct me in "theological logic", you should at least start out by using the correct definitions of these words

lastly, you said

good for you.... and guess what? I have put a lot of thought into theology as well, and since you want to bring this up, as if you are the only one who has put such effort into knowing what and why you believe, you may be interested to know that I graduated from a Christian college with a major in Biblical Counseling and a double minor in Systematic Theology and Apologetics with most of classes towards a Master's degree completed.... and since graduation I have continually studied, building my personal library to well over a thousand books, commentaries, systematic theologies, books on apologetics, etc, and have been an Admin at another theological forum for the past 6 years, having constantly defended my views against everyone from atheists, agnostics, wiccas, to liberals, JW's, Mormons, Christadelphians, Roman Catholics, the Orthodox, Open Theists and Evangelical Arminians etc. All this is simply to say that you should not assume anything about the level of my commitment or knowledge, just because you disagree with me. That is fine that you think I am wrong. Just don't confuse your "love for God and biblical truth within His word" for any lack of the same qualities on my part, that is, do not assume that I unthinkingly adopted "some man's doctrine". You do not know my heart, so any thought of you knowing my motives would you put you in the place that God alone occupies when it comes to knowing the hearts and motives of man.

blessings,
Ken

 

Sure, this is the typical free willer reply. God is sovereign, so if He wants to give man the free choice as to whether or not to be saved, that's His sovereign will being done.

Again, that's nothing but double-talk. The moment God turns over to man the key to salvation, He abdicates His throne on the issue. What you're saying amounts to "God sovereignly decided not to be sovereign in this decision." How silly can you get? You're just attributing the decision NOT to be sovereign to His sovereign will. You still end up with God not being sovereign.